Are high rise vehicles safe in built up areas?

[South]

Exactly the type of incorrect garbage that makes people buy 4WD's - sorry you are no safer than anyone else - all you do is cause MORE damage to other people and other vehciles in a collision. Gee there is a lot of 4WD's out there better go buy a Mack truck to be safe - WTF? I'd rather buy a vehicle more dynamically capable of avoiding an accident in the first place.

Im guessing you have never owned or driven a 4WD for an extended period of time. That is the sole reason why females like to drive 4WDs, they feel safer in the vehicle, go ask any lady on the street...

If a vehicle isnt capable of avoiding an accident then it wouldnt be sold to the public, its not difficult to hit the brakes and swerve you know. If you find that hard to believe then please hand in your license, you shouldnt be endangering others with your incompetency.

If a sedan runs into a 4WD at a decent speed, then the sedan is going to come off second best. So knowing that the vehicle you prefer to use is going to be smashed, you would still rather be in it... smart thinking

[merlin]

Originally Posted by South

Im guessing you have never owned or driven a 4WD for an extended period of time. That is the sole reason why females like to drive 4WDs, they feel safer in the vehicle, go ask any lady on the street...

Is that why you drive a 4WD?

Originally Posted by South

If a vehicle isnt capable of avoiding an accident then it wouldnt be sold to the public, its not difficult to hit the brakes and swerve you know. If you find that hard to believe then please hand in your license, you shouldnt be endangering others with your incompetency.

I didnt say it wasn't capable of avoiding an accident, I rather stated that other vehicles are more dynamically capable of avoiding an accident than a large 4WD.

Originally Posted by South

If a sedan runs into a 4WD at a decent speed, then the sedan is going to come off second best. So knowing that the vehicle you prefer to use is going to be smashed, you would still rather be in it... smart thinking

Says who? That's my point - the impact between a large 4WD and a sedan will cause more damage to the sedan and it's oocupants than in a sedan vs sedan crash. However the occupants of the 4WD will be still no better off. than if they were in a sedan. I work a number of days a month in RTA crashlab and liase with the guys that run these tests everyday - sorry but your deludin yourself if you think you are any safer in a 4WD.

[Bluefreak]

If y'all would go out and put a 10inch lift on your Falcons, we'd be on a level playing field... Joking...

Driver education and attitude is the answer... I have a 4wd and a Falcon wagon. The 4by is better on fuel and IMO more comfortable to drive. I use it as a daily driver and as a weekend warrior. Mine is a stock dual cab Mitsu Triton. I parked it nose to nose with a friends AUII XR6 and I gotta say, heaven help him if we ever meet head-on.The pitch of the underside of my bull bar and the pitch of the Falcon bonnet are near perfectly matched. These vehicles have their place and banning them from the city could open a real can of worms... Imagine the cost of a government buy-back scheme... I brought a NEW vehicle to service my requirements, 3 years later why should I have to settle for market value? I want my $40+K back to get another new vehicle to service my revised list of needs...

Just ИИИИing in the breeze... Take it for what it's worth

[South]

Merlin: Re-read what you just replied, when you ask 'Says who?' well you just went on to confirm exactly what I said... so in answering your question, You said...

How is a sedan more capable of avoiding a collision? A 4WD/softroader can mount the curb if its safe to do so, whereas a lowered vehicle might cause more damage mounting a curb than it would just nudging the other car. Plus if you mount the curb in your modified sedan and avoid the accident, you still have to repair the car anyway :P

I drive a 4WD because it takes me to places a sedan or softroader wouldnt even come close to. You get a thrill by accelerating to the speed limit only a tad bit quicker than others, whereas I get a thrill by heading bush and visiting places that most people can only ever dream of.

Corrugated roads that would destory my fairmont within minutes are lapped up in our 4WD. I can run our fridge 24x7 in the 4WD and have a constant supply of cold food and beverages, try that in your sedan and half your boot is now gone and your battery will ИИИИ it within 24hrs. I can legally tow a large caravan, most sedans cannot and most of the sedans you see doing so, are doing it illegally.

The list for 4WDs is endless, the list against 4WDs is very limited.

Originally Posted by LTDHO

Fortunately I drive a series of vehicles. Including new Hilux's and Patrols and a Patrol similar to the one in the pic! I am very familiar on how they accelerate, stop and steer. However my point isn’t based on this. More so the bulkiness. It appears that most large vehicle owners still drive like they are in a corolla or Laser.
In my experience I have seen many more 4x4’s roll than sedans. I blame both the vehicle and driver for this.
Also I see daily the 4x4 driver staying to close to the vehicle in front. I have to assume that is because the aluminium bull bar will protect the driver of the 4x4. As a winch can not be bolted to an aluminium bull bar, I fail to see a use for these.
I didn’t ever suggest that sedan drivers are better.

Due to a massive blind spot behind the driver of a lifted 4x4, it is not as simple as selecting reverse. Extra care has to be taken.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m anti 4x4 as I drive one myself and go off road frequently.

I am however anti SUV. I classify SUV as any 4x4 that doesn’t go off road.

re-read what I wrote ..

[merlin]

Originally Posted by South

Merlin: Re-read what you just replied, when you ask 'Says who?' well you just went on to confirm exactly what I said... so in answering your question, You said...

How is a sedan more capable of avoiding a collision? A 4WD/softroader can mount the curb if its safe to do so, whereas a lowered vehicle might cause more damage mounting a curb than it would just nudging the other car. Plus if you mount the curb in your modified sedan and avoid the accident, you still have to repair the car anyway :P

I drive a 4WD because it takes me to places a sedan or softroader wouldnt even come close to. You get a thrill by accelerating to the speed limit only a tad bit quicker than others, whereas I get a thrill by heading bush and visiting places that most people can only ever dream of.

Corrugated roads that would destory my fairmont within minutes are lapped up in our 4WD. I can run our fridge 24x7 in the 4WD and have a constant supply of cold food and beverages, try that in your sedan and half your boot is now gone and your battery will ИИИИ it within 24hrs. I can legally tow a large caravan, most sedans cannot and most of the sedans you see doing so, are doing it illegally.

The list for 4WDs is endless, the list against 4WDs is very limited.

Fair enough, however - I have no particular issue with you owning a 4WD or sharing the road with you for that matter.

My beef in this thread was simply debunking the myth (which many people belive) that a 4WD is safer than a sedan in an accident. That is all, nothing else.

This is straight from my RTA crashlab contact - more for general interest than to cause an argument:

Generally yes, a large 4wd will do more damage to a sedan than a sedan vs sedan accident. This is due largely to the greater mass of the 4wd and therefore energy that it imparts to the sedan during impact. This doesn't necisaraly mean that the occupants of the 4wd are safer though.

And generally sedans have a higher safety rating than 4wd's.

If you need any further info, I can give a more accurate and long winded response. However for now see below calcs:

sedan vs sedan @ 50km/h: total energy of impact is equal to total kinetic energy of both vehicles, ie
KE=1/2mv^2
KE = 1/2 x 1800kg x 13.9m/s ^2 (50km/h) x 2 vehicles
KE = 347KJ of energy

4wd vs sedan @ 50km/h: total energy of impact is equal to total kinetic energy of both vehicles, ie
KE = 1/2mv^2
KE = 1/2 x 1800kg x 13.9m/s ^2 + 1/2 x 2400kg x 13.9m/s ^2
KE = 405KJ of energy

As more energy needs to be dissapated in the 4wd impact, more damage is done to the vehicles.

Originally Posted by merlin

Oh my - you all had to join up and make single posts because you are that insecure? FFS its a forum, people express their views get over it.

I guess like the Hi-Po crowd .. we are sick of getting slammed by the media (today tonight, scrubby, ACA news paper collums the list goes on) .. so it's only natural to defend our decison's.

For the most part I have found this thread to be pretty good .. perhaps there is some unlikley alliances to be made between the modded 4x4 drives and the modded car drivers ...

[red_hotxr6]

Boys if you lift your head up a little and to the left not 1 or 2 but all of the moderators are just itching to do something lets just live together in peaceful harmony, ahmmmmmmm,ahmmmmmmm.lol

[Voodoo65]

This is all very well, BUT what is the hight of the bumper which is what would actually HIT you when your example is that a prime mover etc compare the hight of bumper on a semi and that of the 4x4 that is what the problem is................ :

All,

PEACE

We all know there are different limits to each type of vehicle. We all drive accordingly. In both crowds there are the idiots who all give us a bad name.

Being a 4WD owner, I would not mind a additional license testing to ensure those mums or P platers understand the unique handling, parking, size, higher COG etc issues.

For those off us here we know these issues as we are activly enjoying our rides. Soccer mums probaly dont and hence extra licensing would be good.

I dont wish this thread to continue, I believe we all get the point and

HAPPY MOTORING !!!

PS- Fords kick ИИИИ over Holdens

Steve

[The Taipan]

So are you suggesting if I had an accident on a corolla, vs a semi-trailer, it would be more survivable than a similar accident versus a 4wd???

The Taipan wrote
So are you suggesting if I had an accident on a corolla, vs a semi-trailer, it would be more survivable than a similar accident versus a 4wd???

This is a matter for the governing body as they set ADR's on maximum bumper heights etc. You notice how truck bumpers are at a reasonable height. So are 4WD's.

We all know that a bigger weight hitting a smaller weight will win. It is a sad affair that someone may get killed but unless we all drive teh same weight vehicle, with the same number of passenegers, our car weights will always be different.

All small cars, big cars, hi po cars, 4WD's, Trucks, vans have there purpose and can be legallly on the roads. We all need to drive in that vehicles limits.

Steve

[South]

Originally Posted by Voodoo65

This is all very well, BUT what is the hight of the bumper which is what would actually HIT you when your example is that a prime mover etc compare the hight of bumper on a semi and that of the 4x4 that is what the problem is................ :

Actually, tests have been conducted by an independant enthusiast group in the UK that prove it is far better to be struck by a 4WD than it is to be struck by a sedan.

A 4WD has a large contact patch that will push the pedestrian away from the vehicle. On the other hand a sedan has a lower and smaller contact patch in which the pedestrian will be flung into the bonnet and/or the windscreen. You will also note that although trucks do have a much larger front end, the pedestrian will be pushed away from the vehicle but most likely will also end up under the vehicle (take into account the stopping distance of such a rig).

No matter what, your still going to be extremely sore or no longer with us if your hit by any type of vehicle... It is up to all parties to make sure they are concentrating... If a person is going to walk onto the road without looking, then its their fault for being hit by a vehicle. Roads are for transport, pedestrians should stay clear and stay alert...

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by Thunderau

You boys know how to get new members don't you. Have a look at the number of new members with single posts.

Please remember no matter what you say you will all have people with the opposite view, take myself for example, I have both a Nissan Patrol which you would love to see banned but also have a EF Ford turbo, which people with a counter view would love to see banned.

Lets all take a step back and look a it from both sides.

:voldar02: _2: :hihi: :monkes:

A good debate is usually very hard to keep out of, especially if the subject is close to the listener/reader.

To the guys asking for the thread to be shut down; why don't you just stop looking in, shut it yourself.

For the record; I agree with what some have said about banning one type of vehicle, it could become the thin edge of the wedge.
How does that old saying go; give a politician a centre meter & they'll take a mile?

Johnydepp

I like your sig, it's very appropiate !!

The true danger only occurs when you take a potentially dangerous piece of machinery
and place it in the hands of the most unpredictable species on the planet.
Human behaviour, as history has catalogued, cannot account for what any persons actions may be,
especially concerning their love of the motor vehicle.

steve

[The Taipan]

That is definitely true, but we have, as a species, shown that we can also perform at extremely high levels of skill. Take for example pilots, where few accidents occur due to pilot error. Mechanical error is far more common in the air. For some reason when you drop a few thousand feet, vehicles become somewhat reliable, but the extra oxygen makes us a little more stupid?!? The few accidents CAUSED (as opposed to worsened) by mechanical fault are predominantly preventable - ie they knew they had dodgy brakes/lights/steering etc... but drove anyway...

As for DESIGN fault causing the accident - it certainly would make an interesting study, but I am pretty certain given any large 4wd, and a sensible driver they could be piloted over just about any sealed road in Australia and not run into anything, thereby proving that its not a problem with the design of the vehicle which causes the accident, but rather the design of the driver themselves.

The question we have got to answer is, why do we achieve such high rates of perfection in the air (or many other vehicles which require specialist licences) and such poor rates on the road?

Any ideas? (hint: answer is hidden in the brackets)...

Thats cool. I have always agred to stricter licensing. The RTA has moved that way by limiting power to motor bikes years ago, talk about no V8s and turbos for P platers and why not No vehicle over 2t for P Platers as well.

As mentioned previoulsy if the RTA did say all 2t plus vehicles must have a heavy licence, how do they implement it without forcing people of the road. Maybe as a interim make all 2t vehices sit a special course and must be done in a 2 year period, blah, blah.

Back when I worked for Telstra as a techo, we all had to sit a advanced driving course by Ian Luff at Oran park. We learnt alot that day about braking etc and it was a good day. The same type of thing could be applied to 4WD's, Hi Po cars, vans etc, all that have a different drivng skill when compared to a standard passenger vehilce.

Steve

[The Taipan]

Special licences - as in defensive driver training is far more important than any other form of accident prevention. I recall a road safety expert on a documentry suggest that if we replaced all airbags with solid metal spears you might find people would do anything to avoid collision and a great number of collisions would suddenly not occur. It'd certainly change my behaviour, even though I generally try to drive with that in mind, seeing the thing pointing at my ascending aortic arch would certainly give me the required reminder when I am tempted to err on the side of aggressive as opposed to defensive driving...

Originally Posted by The Taipan

Special licences - as in defensive driver training is far more important than any other form of accident prevention. I recall a road safety expert on a documentry suggest that if we replaced all airbags with solid metal spears you might find people would do anything to avoid collision and a great number of collisions would suddenly not occur. It'd certainly change my behaviour, even though I generally try to drive with that in mind, seeing the thing pointing at my ascending aortic arch would certainly give me the required reminder when I am tempted to err on the side of aggressive as opposed to defensive driving...

LOL :

Makes me think of riding bikes as a kid in thongs. Always rode carefully. Put shoes on end up taking off skin somewhere.

Steve

[ltd]

Well screw all of this debate crap, I have just sent an email to mythbusters and if/when they show it, they will prove/disprove once and for all that 4wd's are safer than sedans. So there.

I think a defesive driving course is the best choice for every body who drives any vehecle not just the 2 tonnes and over. Lets face it the high performance and 4wd industries make a Sh*t load of money for the goverment just like cigerrettes do. Can you see them banning them.

This was a fun debate though.Check out some of our rigs and the talent that it takes to build one into a fun machine. www.outerlimits.com.au By the way there are a small number of us that have ford V8's in our comp trucks because we can and FORD rules.

LudaCris

[chunkz]

its www.outerlimits4x4.com

oops

Sorry.

[chunkz]

alls good

how bout a rigid truck licence for the bigger 4x4's, i could live with that cause i all ready have it :
mog rover has a 302 and ford box

[I bleed ford]

It's always been a touchy issue. some blokes i work with modify 4WD's and do hilux v6 conversions often get request for lift kits, both body and suspension. Admittedly, although looking sweet, some people are obviously using illegal mods on their 4WD. Serious 4x4 owners are more careful when it comes to town use. it's the god damn yuppies we gotta watch and the ( no sexism intended) girls who get married and change from a charade to a landcruiser. As stated by most here, it comes down to driver operation. No need for big lift in the carpark at woolies lol

With the accident stuff... A higher seating position of a 4x4 is more likely to see a situation up ahead that may arise, and you have longer to react before an accident occurs, even avoid it... Where as a lower sedan may not even see the situation.. or it is too late

i think they have every right to be on the road,just like my WRX lowered doof doof and so on.... just like some of you on here with 350hp motors you should be ONLY on a drag strip and not on the streets, how would ya like that, each to there own i suppose

[460cixy]

Originally Posted by johnydep

I took the corner at a safe speed that any sedan could have done, the Prado's centre of gravity & live axle suspension caused the vehicle to behave in a manner that the driver was not accustomed to

i call bs on this. may be a suprise to you mate but prado does not have a live axel up front. some of you morons realy need to get a life or something. i should start a poll on removeing lowerd falcons from the cbd. frigen nimbys

[Outbackjack]

How true, prado has independant front end, them and the new land cruiser may be 4X4's but it is hard these days to look at them as proper off road vehicles. Only good for taking the kids up the the snow now.

Cheers all.