History of Ford vs Holden models

castellan · 31-07-2009, 10:37 PM

Just after reading the outshine thing. I am wondering if anyone will debate the history of why! certain model falcon's were better than holden's ect, with both in 6 cyl & V8. "in there day". pro and con. whether it be ute, fairmont vs premier. and maybe a bit of history as to why the company did so and so.
Starting from the 1960's XK as i recon that any holden with a gray motor in it was rubbish and is not worth talking about. and as every one knows all ford before 1960 were better than holdens anyway.

:
The XK was a very advanced car in it's day. and ford Australia were on the right track introducing it. a modern car with a big powerful 144 ci motor and a year after a monster 170 ci motor.
The XL wins hands down vs holden.
The XM has to contend with the holden red motor, but ford have a 200 ci motor now to. but falcon has a hardtop beat that.
The XP gets a 3 speed auto in 1965 poor old holden don't get a 3 speed auto until 1970.
The XR a 289 V8 what was holden's answer

:
from 1968 on thing get :evil3:

flappist · 31-07-2009, 11:00 PM

Really???

So the IRS in the AU, VCT/DVCT/DIVCT in the AU/BA/BF I6, 6 speed auto, QOHC V8, VCT V8, turbo 6, SSS auto, factory LPG etc etc do not count?

castellan · 31-07-2009, 11:13 PM

Only starting it off flappers. we can get there.

Eu-GenixX · 31-07-2009, 11:42 PM

i can add that the EA had the first OHC 6cyl built in australia.. and i think it made more power than holdens V8 of the time.. ? and was 6kw off the VL turbo

Ryan · 31-07-2009, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eu-GenixX

i can add that the EA had the first OHC 6cyl built in australia.. and i think it made more power than holdens V8 of the time.. ? and was 6kw off the VL turbo

The VN 5.0Ls were 165kw, and the EA 3.9L multi points were 139Kw. If you were comparing them to the VL 5.0L (As VLs were still in production in 1988) they were more powerful though.

starkersEB · 01-08-2009, 12:01 AM

So many thing come to mind, heres a couple

Their ute has/was a joke compared to the fords WB onwards even pre WB

The VB commodore a reaction to the full size family XD was only a couple of inches bigger than the torana

I could go on for hours!!!

Eu-GenixX · 01-08-2009, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan

The VN 5.0Ls were 165kw, and the EA 3.9L multi points were 139Kw. If you were comparing them to the VL 5.0L (As VLs were still in production in 1988) they were more powerful though.

yeah.. must have been the VL's... i read somewhere that when the EA was released... Holdens V8 was making 125kw.. ??

Ryan · 01-08-2009, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eu-GenixX

yeah.. must have been the VL's... i read somewhere that when the EA was released... Holdens V8 was making 125kw.. ??

122Kw. The VL 5.0Ls weren't that powerful.

castellan · 01-08-2009, 12:18 AM

Holden had the 1st OHC 6 in the 1986 VL it was a bit gutless down low.but faster then a 5.0L VL exec. and i think the VL turbo was the fastest motor at the time, with unleaded. could it beat a VL group A.

castellan · 01-08-2009, 12:30 AM

Ford were the 1st to get a fair din com air con in the XW-ZC. Holden had to wait until the HQ JULY 1971.

starkersEB · 01-08-2009, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by castellan

Holden had the 1st OHC 6 in the 1986 VL it was a bit gutless down low.but faster then a 5.0L VL exec. and i think the VL turbo was the fastest motor at the time, with unleaded. could it beat a VL group A.

Yeah but it was a nissan motor, the best thing holden ever did. Should have kept using them.

Ryan · 01-08-2009, 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by starkersEB

Yeah but it was a nissan motor, the best thing holden ever did. Should have kept using them.

Probably would've if it wasn't for the Japanese exchange rate at that time. It was apparently going to be carried over into the VN too.

Wally · 01-08-2009, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by castellan

Holden had the 1st OHC 6 in the 1986 VL it was a bit gutless down low.but faster then a 5.0L VL exec. and i think the VL turbo was the fastest motor at the time, with unleaded. could it beat a VL group A.

I bought one of the first VL turbo Berlinas. It was a good pokey engine and quite easily chipped up to formidable power when coupled with an intercooler and free flowing exhaust. Ended up blowing the head gasket. After a while the turbo fun lost it's appeal, gave it to the wife and I went back to V8s for the daily drive.

greenfoam · 01-08-2009, 09:29 AM

Both makes have had their strong and weak points. You would be pretty biased to suggest any one model was much better than the other makes. The biggest gap was probably VN vs EA but apart from that there hasn't been much in it

Kenaz · 01-08-2009, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by castellan

The XP gets a 3 speed auto in 1965 poor old holden don't get a 3 speed auto until 1970.

Unfortunately the tables were turned in 1986 when the VL Commodore got a 4 speed auto (in the 6s) Falcon didn't get a 4 speed auto until the 1990 EAII.

PALE ALE · 01-08-2009, 01:24 PM

The thing that always let Holdens down was their drive train, Banjo diffs, trimatic trans(traumatic), opel 4 speeds. None of these would cope with any abuse

XR6_190 · 01-08-2009, 01:42 PM

This is sounding a bit biased, I mean Ford weren't always the first to do everything, So i thought i would add some things Holden did first

Holden were the first to introduce a Nissan engine,
Holden were the first to introduce a rattly V6
Holden were the first to introduce a 4 cyl full size car

Windsor220 · 01-08-2009, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by castellan

Holden had the 1st OHC 6 in the 1986 VL it was a bit gutless down low.but faster then a 5.0L VL exec. and i think the VL turbo was the fastest motor at the time, with unleaded. could it beat a VL group A.

Even though the VL turbo was a decent bit of kit when released the EA Spac manual matched it for straight line performance so it wasnt really that quick in standard form.

castellan · 01-08-2009, 03:55 PM

From XT 221 6 wins vs 186 HK.
302 V8 vs 307 the 302 windsor is better then any 307.
O no the HK GTS 327 MONARO vs XT302 GT, i think holden wins there, being a hardtop and power.
ZA fairlane wins vs HR premier.
ZB fairlane wins vs HK brougham rubbish.

XW falcon & fairlane wins every thing.
But as for the HT GTS 350 monaro, i think it wins on being a hardtop. but as to how the performance goes against a GT or a GT-HO. i don't know. but as to the GT-HO phase 2 i think ford has it all over the GTS 350. as for the GTS 350 bathurst. i think these were a option, were you went back to the dealer and they fitted. a bigger cam different heads and a air cleaner moderfaction. it was not done at GMH, in house.

PALE ALE · 01-08-2009, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by castellan

From XT 221 6 wins vs 186 HK.
302 V8 vs 307 the 302 windsor is better then any 307.
O no the HK GTS 327 MONARO vs XT302 GT, i think holden wins there, being a hardtop and power.
ZA fairlane wins vs HR premier.
ZB fairlane wins vs HK brougham rubbish.

XW falcon & fairlane wins every thing.
But as for the HT GTS 350 monaro, i think it wins on being a hardtop. but as to how the performance goes against a GT or a GT-HO. i don't know. but as to the GT-HO phase 2 i think ford has it all over the GTS 350. as for the GTS 350 bathurst. i think these were a option, were you went back to the dealer and they fitted. a bigger cam different heads and a air cleaner moderfaction. it was not done at GMH, in house.

again, you have a drive train issue HT GTS- muncie, 10 bolt salisbury, versus toploader, 31 spline, detroit lockered 9 inch, the GTHO has it all over the Monaro

Powdered Toast Man · 02-08-2009, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by starkersEB

The VB commodore a reaction to the full size family XD was only a couple of inches bigger than the torana

Actually the Commodore was a reaction to the late 70's oil crisis and the demand for smaller more fuel efficient cars. It was actually Ford that couldn't give the public what they wanted as all they had the money to do was update the existing platform. The XD was a groundbraking car though and they did trim a lot of weight off of it. The fact that oil crisis abated and that many buyers found the Commy too small that the Falcon ended up being a big winner in the 80's.

I think the styling of the e-series was much more upmarket than that of the commy competitor, especially the interior of the EF/EL compared to the blocky plastic dash and trim in the commys.

But then the tide reversed with the VT vs AU IMO, especially the interiors. Im only talking styling here, not fit and finish or engineering.

Gotta say the 250ci 6 always had it over the crappy 202! Not sure about the V8s, never driven or even been in a 70's model V8 Holden.

djst · 02-08-2009, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PALE ALE

The thing that always let Holdens down was their drive train, Banjo diffs, trimatic trans(traumatic), opel 4 speeds. None of these would cope with any abuse

I have lots of stories and laughs thinking back,about some of my Holden racer mates,regularly under the car changing diffs and gearboxes.
While the old trusty toploader, and 9 inch, just kept on taking a hammering.
Even the ford fours and sixes held up remarkably well in comparison to their Holden counterparts,but the drivers thought they were, Golden because they were Holden.

greenfoam · 02-08-2009, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Powdered Toast Man

Not sure about the V8s, never driven or even been in a 70's model V8 Holden.

I'm sure everyone including a Ford fan deserves a ride in a Torana hatch powered by a strong 308, pretty much haven't lived until then :p and I've been in plenty of GT's but they have nothing on a Torana, whippy little things they are. In fact the XU1's are even more fun really, they accelerate in a weird...... non torque way. You dont feel like you are going fast but the speedo suggests you are straped to a rocket. Weight is _everything_

Bossxr8 · 02-08-2009, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by castellan

Just after reading the outshine thing. I am wondering if anyone will debate the history of why! certain model falcon's were better than holden's ect, with both in 6 cyl & V8. "in there day". pro and con. whether it be ute, fairmont vs premier. and maybe a bit of history as to why the company did so and so.
Starting from the 1960's XK as i recon that any holden with a gray motor in it was rubbish and is not worth talking about. and as every one knows all ford before 1960 were better than holdens anyway.

:
The XK was a very advanced car in it's day. and ford Australia were on the right track introducing it. a modern car with a big powerful 144 ci motor and a year after a monster 170 ci motor.
The XL wins hands down vs holden.
The XM has to contend with the holden red motor, but ford have a 200 ci motor now to. but falcon has a hardtop beat that.
The XP gets a 3 speed auto in 1965 poor old holden don't get a 3 speed auto until 1970.
The XR a 289 V8 what was holden's answer

:
from 1968 on thing get :evil3:

The XK was the better car and sold well initially until the ball joints started breaking on rough roads, and its reputation and sales suffered. It took years and years to finally get over the bad reputation that created. Not until Ford did the durability run at the proving ground with the XP to prove its durability were the questions over durability put to rest.

castellan · 02-08-2009, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PALE ALE

again, you have a drive train issue HT GTS- muncie, 10 bolt salisbury, versus toploader, 31 spline, detroit lockered 9 inch, the GTHO has it all over the Monaro

True! but also in the HK & HT you could get a 12 bolt diff option with 3.55 ratio or lower. just trying to narrow the gap a bit

castellan · 02-08-2009, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djst

I have lots of stories and laughs thinking back,about some of my Holden racer mates,regularly under the car changing diffs and gearboxes.
While the old trusty toploader, and 9 inch, just kept on taking a hammering.
Even the ford fours and sixes held up remarkably well in comparison to their Holden counterparts,but the drivers thought they were, Golden because they were Holden.

I had a LH SLR 5000 (ooh! the fine spline banjo)
If i could find the dude responsible for conceiving the idea of putting a banjo diff behind a 308. there will be hell to pay!

GTP 290 · 02-08-2009, 03:13 PM

IMO the commodore was a reaction to the falcon full stop.

You can all go on about comparing holden Vs ford but really you are all comparing the ford falcon against anything holden had to offer at the time. be it the monaros, torana's, commodores etc...

The falcon has been around for alot longer than the commodore as ford actually stuck with what they started and carried it through to change with the times. Holden just tried to keep up by changing their focus on different models until they had something that they could see was keeping with what ford had to offer.

GregXR6T · 02-08-2009, 06:05 PM

Didn't Ford still have the hand brake under the dash until the late 95s.

BigAL_250 · 02-08-2009, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GregXR6T

Didn't Ford still have the hand brake under the dash until the late 95s.

I was being told by a mate reccently, about his driving test, that when he had to do a handbrake stop, reached under the dash for the brake. Of course he's in an test car, so it's in it's rightful place, beside the seat. Instructor says, Falcon driver, hey?

Thankfull · 03-08-2009, 12:31 AM

So ahh....where was the Holden V8 race car in 1970/71 ?

It certainly was no where near a race track.....