Are Large car sales REALLY falling?

[The Monty]

Ive been reading a lot in the last few years, mostly revolving around the fact that large car sales are down, medium car sales are up, along with small car sales.
We are told that people are moving "away" from large cars, and towards mid sized cars, and even small cars.
This is where I began to dispute these facts.
All these facts are off Redbook.
For example:
Large car in 1990:
Ea Falcon
Dimensions:
4.8m long
1.85m wide
1.39m high
1394kg

VN Commodore
4.85m long
1.79m wide
1.4m high
1330kg

Fast Forward to 2011:
VE Commodore
4.9m long
1.9m wide
1.47m high
1665kg

FG Falcon:
4.95m long
1.86m wide
1.45m high
1710kg

Medium Car:
Im Going with the Telstar, 1989:
4.5m long
1.69m wide
1.4m high
1175kg

2011 medium Ford is the Mondeo.
4.78m long
1.88m wide
1.5m high
1567kg

Small Car:
1990 Laser
4.27m long
1.69m wide
1.37m high
965kg

2011 Focus sedan, as the others wre as close to as can be (its a small car in all reviews)
4.5m long
1.82m wide
1.48m high
1501kg


So here is my argument, although most probably wont see it as I do.
What is considered to be a small car now, and what was a small car, and the same with medium and large, have all changed dramatically.
The New focus, which is a "small car" is now bigger in every aspect, other than length, than an EA Falcon.
The Mondeo is bigger than the falcon except in length and weight.
So, are we actually buying smaller cars, or are we actually buying cars the same size, and with better technology, such as fuel consumption, instead of a "Large car" which is thirsty, and more expensive.
Maybe we arent buying large cars, as the "Small cars" and "Mid sized cars" ARE large cars themselves.
The length difference of the focus sedan to the falcon is 45cm. Thats the difference between a "Small" and a "Large" car. But the "Small" car is lighter, with better fuel economy.
I know what Im saying is a bit messy, and that Im rambling a bit, but I think the term "we arent buying large cars anymore" is misleading to the public.
Maybe it should read "we arent buying poorly specced, expensive and heavy fuel guzzlers, and instead, "small cars which are not a lot smaller, cheaper to run and cost less".


Just my 2c.
Josh

[P6LTD351]

Originally Posted by The Monty

Ive been reading a lot in the last few years, mostly revolving around the fact that large car sales are down, medium car sales are up, along with small car sales.
We are told that people are moving "away" from large cars, and towards mid sized cars, and even small cars.
This is where I began to dispute these facts.
All these facts are off Redbook.
For example:
Large car in 1990:
Ea Falcon
Dimensions:
4.8m long
1.85m wide
1.39m high
1394kg

VN Commodore
4.85m long
1.79m wide
1.4m high
1330kg

Fast Forward to 2011:
VE Commodore
4.9m long
1.9m wide
1.47m high
1665kg

FG Falcon:
4.95m long
1.86m wide
1.45m high
1710kg

Medium Car:
Im Going with the Telstar, 1989:
4.5m long
1.69m wide
1.4m high
1175kg

2011 medium Ford is the Mondeo.
4.78m long
1.88m wide
1.5m high
1567kg

Small Car:
1990 Laser
4.27m long
1.69m wide
1.37m high
965kg

2011 Focus sedan, as the others wre as close to as can be (its a small car in all reviews)
4.5m long
1.82m wide
1.48m high
1501kg


So here is my argument, although most probably wont see it as I do.
What is considered to be a small car now, and what was a small car, and the same with medium and large, have all changed dramatically.
The New focus, which is a "small car" is now bigger in every aspect, other than length, than an EA Falcon.
The Mondeo is bigger than the falcon except in length and weight.
So, are we actually buying smaller cars, or are we actually buying cars the same size, and with better technology, such as fuel consumption, instead of a "Large car" which is thirsty, and more expensive.
Maybe we arent buying large cars, as the "Small cars" and "Mid sized cars" ARE large cars themselves.
The length difference of the focus sedan to the falcon is 45cm. Thats the difference between a "Small" and a "Large" car. But the "Small" car is lighter, with better fuel economy.
I know what Im saying is a bit messy, and that Im rambling a bit, but I think the term "we arent buying large cars anymore" is misleading to the public.
Maybe it should read "we arent buying poorly specced, expensive and heavy fuel guzzlers, and instead, "small cars which are not a lot smaller, cheaper to run and cost less".


Just my 2c.
Josh

I think you make some good points.

[Dave_Obsession]

Certainly an interesting way of looking at it!

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by The Monty

The Mondeo is bigger than the falcon except in length and weight.

Incorrect Josh, Falcon has 75mm more shoulder room and 50mm more rear leg room, that makes a huge difference.

So, are we actually buying smaller cars, or are we actually buying cars the same size, and with better technology, such as fuel consumption, instead of a "Large car" which is thirsty, and more expensive.
Maybe we arent buying large cars, as the "Small cars" and "Mid sized cars" ARE large cars themselves.
The length difference of the focus sedan to the falcon is 45cm. Thats the difference between a "Small" and a "Large" car. But the "Small" car is lighter, with better fuel economy.
I know what Im saying is a bit messy, and that Im rambling a bit, but I think the term "we arent buying large cars anymore" is misleading to the public.
Maybe it should read "we arent buying poorly specced, expensive and heavy fuel guzzlers, and instead, "small cars which are not a lot smaller, cheaper to run and cost less".


Just my 2c.
Josh

Well thought out and constructed argument and I see where you're going with this,
would manufacturers be able to develop a platform and product envelope that covers
cars between (Large) small cars and large mid sized cars as well as an SUV variant or two?

You would basically need a true mid sized platform like the 2003-2011 Mazda 6 which is also used by USA Fusion.
Shorten the wheelbase slightly for a Focus/Cruze and use the latest LWB USA version for a Falcon/Mondeo replacement.

Alternatively a mid sized RWD platform shared with Mustang would enable a similar product envelope....

[SumoDog68]

Every generation of all car categories "grows" in size . That is why medium and same small cars are the same size as old large cars.
People are not buying todays large cars in big numbers like they used to. Maybe large cars have became ,well , too large ?
That combined with big engines in large cars which most public associate with high fuel use might be a factor.
I drive a V8 but there is hardly a point when traffic is travelling at 20 under the speed limit. You could keep up in 3 cyl Charade :-)
For me it is more about enjoyment and appreciation of machines that might be exctinct in near future ...

[Nikked]

Large car sales are falling...but its due to the fact that the "medium" sized cars offer basically the same size for cheaper prices and have more features.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by The Monty

Ive been reading a lot in the last few years, mostly revolving around the fact that large car sales are down, medium car sales are up, along with small car sales.
We are told that people are moving "away" from large cars, and towards mid sized cars, and even small cars.
This is where I began to dispute these facts.
All these facts are off Redbook.
For example:
Large car in 1990:
Ea Falcon
Dimensions:
4.8m long
1.85m wide
1.39m high
1394kg

VN Commodore
4.85m long
1.79m wide
1.4m high
1330kg

Fast Forward to 2011:
VE Commodore
4.9m long
1.9m wide
1.47m high
1665kg

FG Falcon:
4.95m long
1.86m wide
1.45m high
1710kg

Medium Car:
Im Going with the Telstar, 1989:
4.5m long
1.69m wide
1.4m high
1175kg

2011 medium Ford is the Mondeo.
4.78m long
1.88m wide
1.5m high
1567kg

Small Car:
1990 Laser
4.27m long
1.69m wide
1.37m high
965kg

2011 Focus sedan, as the others wre as close to as can be (its a small car in all reviews)
4.5m long
1.82m wide
1.48m high
1501kg


So here is my argument, although most probably wont see it as I do.
What is considered to be a small car now, and what was a small car, and the same with medium and large, have all changed dramatically.
The New focus, which is a "small car" is now bigger in every aspect, other than length, than an EA Falcon.
The Mondeo is bigger than the falcon except in length and weight.
So, are we actually buying smaller cars, or are we actually buying cars the same size, and with better technology, such as fuel consumption, instead of a "Large car" which is thirsty, and more expensive.
Maybe we arent buying large cars, as the "Small cars" and "Mid sized cars" ARE large cars themselves.
The length difference of the focus sedan to the falcon is 45cm. Thats the difference between a "Small" and a "Large" car. But the "Small" car is lighter, with better fuel economy.
I know what Im saying is a bit messy, and that Im rambling a bit, but I think the term "we arent buying large cars anymore" is misleading to the public.
Maybe it should read "we arent buying poorly specced, expensive and heavy fuel guzzlers, and instead, "small cars which are not a lot smaller, cheaper to run and cost less".


Just my 2c.
Josh

these medium "large" cars are a lot lighter, hence less fuel..

VN~VS was ave 1450kg
VT~VZ 1540kg ave
VE is a porker ave weight 1790kg

[Neale]

Originally Posted by Nikked

Large car sales are falling...but its due to the fact that the "medium" sized cars offer basically the same size for cheaper prices and have more features.

Totally agree

[b0son]

I think exterior dimensions or weight are not really a relevant comparison. Cars are overwhelmingly safe now, and with all the airbags, side impact protection etc, it would have come at the cost of interior space unless the car's exterior and weight had grown too.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by b0son

I think exterior dimensions or weight are not really a relevant comparison. Cars are overwhelmingly safe now, and with all the airbags, side impact protection etc, it would have come at the cost of interior space unless the car's exterior and weight had grown too.

people want a frugal car now, what they forget is the midsize is the same as the large one..

economy is helped when there's a 150~200kg difference..

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Nikked

Large car sales are falling...but its due to the fact that the "medium" sized cars offer basically the same size for cheaper prices and have more features.

The thing you'll find is the medium car segment hasn't grown nor shrunk. The SUV and small car market are the ones that have grown while the large car market has shrunk,

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by vztrt

The thing you'll find is the medium car segment hasn't grown nor shrunk. The SUV and small car market are the ones that have grown while the large car market has shrunk,

The fact is, there is more choice for the buyer, in the end, something has to give.

[Ben73]

I think it's large engine cars which is dropping sales.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by vztrt

The thing you'll find is the medium car segment hasn't grown nor shrunk. The SUV and small car market are the ones that have grown while the large car market has shrunk,

Not to mention the 4WD utes section which has exploed too, with Hilux, Navara, Triton, Ranger and Colorado taking a big slice of sales.

[Joe5619]

What defines a "medium" car? Is it engine size or actual physically size? Camry & Auron are basically the same car, just with different sized engines & one is called medium & one is called large.. If it is engine size, then there will be a brand new medium car in the market place come April & it is called Falcon!!!

Interesting times coming up if you ask me!!

[z80]

Originally Posted by The Monty

.....The length difference of the focus sedan to the falcon is 45cm. Thats the difference between a "Small" and a "Large" car. But the "Small" car is lighter, with better fuel economy.
Josh

That vehicle length reduction in a frontal accident will mean a huge difference between walking away and hospital under the right circumstances.

If you are travelling at 60 km/h (16.6 metres a second), then you have to decellerate to zero in the length of the bonnet.

If the bonnet is reduced by 30% you get 30% more G-forces on your internal organs.

A 60km/h frontal is more severe than a space shuttle launch.

16 metres to zero in 1.6 metre bonnet is 10g's.

Reduce the bonnet by 45cm and you get a lot more G's and a lot more pain...

Longer car generally means more to crumple and decellerate slowly.

Assuming both have a structure consisting of more than fresh air...


as I said in another thread...who cares about a few bucks in fuel economy when the physics of safety just don't add up in small cars?

[In Focus]

Originally Posted by z80

That vehicle length reduction in a frontal accident will mean a huge difference between walking away and hospital under the right circumstances.

If you are travelling at 60 km/h (16.6 metres a second), then you have to decellerate to zero in the length of the bonnet.

If the bonnet is reduced by 30% you get 30% more G-forces on your internal organs.

A 60km/h frontal is more severe than a space shuttle launch.

16 metres to zero in 1.6 metre bonnet is 10g's.

Reduce the bonnet by 45cm and you get a lot more G's and a lot more pain...

Longer car generally means more to crumple and decellerate slowly.

Assuming both have a structure consisting of more than fresh air...


as I said in another thread...who cares about a few bucks in fuel economy when the physics of safety just don't add up in small cars?

Then again, in a normal accident one or both drivers are breaking, and it's quite possible (likely?) the Focus will be moving more slowly at impact. That's if its greater agility (ie handling) doesn't help it avoid the accident altogether.

Swings and roundabouts...

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

What defines a "medium" car? Is it engine size or actual physically size? Camry & Auron are basically the same car, just with different sized engines & one is called medium & one is called large.. If it is engine size, then there will be a brand new medium car in the market place come April & it is called Falcon!!!

Interesting times coming up if you ask me!!

American EPA defines car sizes by interior passenger and boot space.
Interestingly the Holden Cruze has enough internal space to qualify as mid sized...just

In Australia, large cars tend to be designated along engine capacity lines
but true mid sizers tend to be narrower internally...

[prydey]

Originally Posted by z80

That vehicle length reduction in a frontal accident will mean a huge difference between walking away and hospital under the right circumstances.

If you are travelling at 60 km/h (16.6 metres a second), then you have to decellerate to zero in the length of the bonnet.

If the bonnet is reduced by 30% you get 30% more G-forces on your internal organs.

A 60km/h frontal is more severe than a space shuttle launch.

16 metres to zero in 1.6 metre bonnet is 10g's.

Reduce the bonnet by 45cm and you get a lot more G's and a lot more pain...

Longer car generally means more to crumple and decellerate slowly.

Assuming both have a structure consisting of more than fresh air...


as I said in another thread...who cares about a few bucks in fuel economy when the physics of safety just don't add up in small cars?

your thinking hasn't advanced with technology. a smart car has a 5 star rating and has been tested by slamming it into a wall at huge speed with the occupant cell remaining fairly well intact.

car size doesn't necessarily mean safer, esp when the difference in mass is only a few hundred kg's.

[The Monty]

Yeah, dont think car size has anything to do with survival rate when we are talking 5 star cars.
Ive had a day to think about my post, and Im glad it made a bit of sense to some.
Obviously "large" car sales are falling, we can all see that, my point is, that what we know as a large car has changed, and what we used to consider a large car, is now around the size of a medium car.
A large car nowadays, is just a large, expensive, fuel consuming heavyweight.
It doesnt seem that we (being the general public/media) cant seem to distinguish what really is a large car, and what isnt.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by The Monty

So here is my argument, although most probably wont see it as I do.
What is considered to be a small car now, and what was a small car, and the same with medium and large, have all changed dramatically.
The New focus, which is a "small car" is now bigger in every aspect, other than length, than an EA Falcon.
The Mondeo is bigger than the falcon except in length and weight.
So, are we actually buying smaller cars, or are we actually buying cars the same size, and with better technology, such as fuel consumption, instead of a "Large car" which is thirsty, and more expensive.
Maybe we arent buying large cars, as the "Small cars" and "Mid sized cars" ARE large cars themselves.
The length difference of the focus sedan to the falcon is 45cm. Thats the difference between a "Small" and a "Large" car. But the "Small" car is lighter, with better fuel economy.
I know what Im saying is a bit messy, and that Im rambling a bit, but I think the term "we arent buying large cars anymore" is misleading to the public.
Maybe it should read "we arent buying poorly specced, expensive and heavy fuel guzzlers, and instead, "small cars which are not a lot smaller, cheaper to run and cost less".


Just my 2c.
Josh

i agree totally. in essence, people are still buying similar sized cars to what they did 15-20 years ago.

i don't really care what dimensions and specs people quote and come up with, go and park a ford focus next to a eb falcon and its pretty clear to me. park the same ford focus next to a ke laser (bubble back) and its also clear.

park a fg falcon next to a eb falcon. it dwarfs it. sure, if you start to break it down, all the measurements aren't that different, but visually and at first glance, cars have grown.

there will always be a smaller market and demand for larger sedans, just like there was with the LWB models of yesteryear.

[The Monty]

Maybe thats why we stopped buying the LWB's in the end. They just got too big for us?
Hell, Im even finding the difference between the AU and the BA a bit of a struggle, due to the BA having such a deep boot and bonnet than the AU, as well as being a lot squarer, it just feels huge (for a car of course, I learnt to drive in a HJ60 Landcruiser).
When Focus's/Mondeo's?Mazda 6's etc pull up next to me on the highway, I just cant get over the fact there is SFA difference in them all, yet Im paying so much more for everything, for what? Because {insert bogan voice** "Its a falcon, straight 6, and RWD just like all aussie cars should be".
Times are changing. Ask me a year or two ago, there would be NO way I would consider less than a straight 6 and anything but a RWD. Maybe its because Im getting older, but when I think about it, why DO I need a 4l 6 and RWD? The new 4cyl/5cyl turbos, and diesels are faster or as fast as them, and its not like we are allowed to rip skids at every corner.
Are we all just afraid to say we bought a FWD family car, in case people laugh at us, because its not the "Aussie Bloke" thing to do? Do we all just say it HAS to be a 6 cyl or bigger and RWD, anything else is soft because we dont want to be different, and just want to fit in with the stereotype?
I may have gone a bit off tangent here, sorry for the rambling...

[nstg8a]

i noticed this when i had my ef, pulled into a car parking space and had to look up to the corolla beside me, it towered over my ef, and the ef wasnt 'that' low lol.
while it was definitely a mile shorter it was a lot taller, and width didnt seem to be a huge amount of difference.

[last fairlane]

Hi Im now 65 and I watched cars grow through the last 50 years some examples
because this is a Ford site I will stick with the brand
1950s Prefect small car as the years went on it had a few name changes
and at every name change it got bigger
IE Prefect-Anglia-Escort-Festiva and now Fiesta
now Zephyrs/Consuls Zephyrs were a six and Consuls a four think Torana LJ six and four used different bonnets
Zephyr/ Consul-Cortina-Sierra-Mondeo
they all grew in size as the decades rolled on
Me the Mrs and kids used to ride around in a Mk1 Zephyr with home made headers and a Holden carb for more power
now we see them at car shows and wonder how the hell we fitted in one of those mind you we have both put on weight since then
maybe thats why smaller cars are bigger so we can fit in them
just my recollections
thanks John

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by last fairlane

Hi Im now 65 and I watched cars grow through the last 50 years some examples
because this is a Ford site I will stick with the brand
1950s Prefect small car as the years went on it had a few name changes
and at every name change it got bigger
IE Prefect-Anglia-Escort-Festiva and now Fiesta
now Zephyrs/Consuls Zephyrs were a six and Consuls a four think Torana LJ six and four used different bonnets
Zephyr/ Consul-Cortina-Sierra-Mondeo
they all grew in size as the decades rolled on
Me the Mrs and kids used to ride around in a Mk1 Zephyr with home made headers and a Holden carb for more power
now we see them at car shows and wonder how the hell we fitted in one of those mind you we have both put on weight since then
maybe thats why smaller cars are bigger so we can fit in them
just my recollections
thanks John

Definitely the case. Manufacturers would be silly to make a driver's and front passenger's seating area like a designer swimsuit as they'd be alienating nearly everyone.

When the form takes over function, like the styling requirement of a supercar, then yeah, you wouldn't want to be carting your kids about in a Porsche (I'd leave them at home and head of the hills).

[mik]

i`ll throw my 2 bob in, firstly i don`t know that there is a simple answer, i do think you have to take into account that the population isa changing, we are less Australian than we once where , now more multicultural society that does`nt value the same things that the older generation Australians did.

also you have to take into account how the wealth of the population has changed, for example more people in the lower wage bracket .....well lets say haves and have nots.
there is one other thing to consider, a lot of the new Australians have big familys, a sedan in a lot of cases just won`t do , a 4wd or suv is a bit more versatile,
another biggy against the big sedan imo the up front cost, it`s a fair wack for the low income earner, there is also the flood of good used sedans out there you can pick up a current model for 20 k or less, it a lot comes back to being people are being as efficient with the funds as possible i think.

[onfire]

Ok, I'll justify the term " large car " by now calling them " traditional large cars "

[z80]

Originally Posted by prydey

your thinking hasn't advanced with technology. a smart car has a 5 star rating and has been tested by slamming it into a wall at huge speed with the occupant cell remaining fairly well intact.

car size doesn't necessarily mean safer, esp when the difference in mass is only a few hundred kg's.

"Huge speed"...you do realize they test at about 64km/h don't you?

I better not go any faster in my 5 star rated car else I might get hurt?

A few hundred kilograms makes a huge difference in an impact.

[stevz]

Originally Posted by z80

"Huge speed"...you do realize they test at about 64km/h don't you?

I better not go any faster in my 5 star rated car else I might get hurt?

A few hundred kilograms makes a huge difference in an impact.

I think he was referring to this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJHpUO-S0i8

[prydey]

Originally Posted by z80

"Huge speed"...you do realize they test at about 64km/h don't you?

refer to stevz post! 70mph.