Close call = why I miss ABS

OzJavelin · 03-09-2007, 08:54 AM

Over the years I've owned a lot or early iron, and they are great fun, but despite their "cocoon-of-steel" feel for safety their accident avoidance mechanisms they are "somewhat" lacking. So far this year I've had to make maybe six emergency stops in my modern daily drivers to avoid roos .. and even in the empty AU ute it's pulled up great with ABS. However yesterday I had to try a similar thing in the '69 Javelin and it's wasn't pretty ..

I was driving the Javelin home from a Fathers Day car show about 11:30am. In my own street about 1km from home a guy in a crappy old Magna comes over the crest of the hill on my side of the road (80km/h speed limit). I was shocked and started to brake and move even further left .. but hit the loose stones on the side of the road and car started to skid. I took my foot off the brakes and tried to steer, but I was already rotating right so I just jammed on the brakes to stop myself moving onto the right-hand side of the road. In the meantime the guy must have seen me an swerved back to his side of the road. He stopped OK and I stopped sideways in a cloud of tyre smoke. When he came back to see if I was OK (I was) his excuse was that he was looking at the lambs in the paddock ..... and that this isn't usually a busy road!?

Only problem now is that I have four flatspotted tyres .. but it could have been worse for both people and property. I wonder how much damage an AMC Javelin would have done to an early nineties Magna front-righthand door?

Anyway I miss my ABS. It would be nice to easily retrofit it to older cars .. at the very least it would save money on tyres and replacement underpants.

Rod.

Hunter · 03-09-2007, 09:53 AM

Ahh yeah dude I feel your pain re the tyres... my EL doesn't have ABS either and I once had some moron pull out of a blind carpark - the building obscured most of the view of the road and he didn't even creep out and take a peek, he just planted it and launched out of the place into a one way street.. Anyway I was doing the legally posted limit of 60 km/h and its not every day you expect someone to do something so stupid. Thankfully my reactions aren't too bad and I was able to brake but only just... I came to a screaming halt literally centimeters from his front left quarter in a cloud of tyre smoke. I hurled a torrent of abuse at him as I leant out the window.

Anyway end result was flatspots on my front tyres which put them out of balance and they vibrated like hell on the highway. I ended up putting them on the back and 'fixing' them up but god damn it that moron cost me money.

I wonder if ABS would've helped me.

Ringo · 03-09-2007, 10:52 AM

I have heard of ABS being retrofited to Cobra Kit Cars but I think they are just fitting entire braking system from donor cars so the calibration is probably out of whack to due the different weight.

Glad to hear the Javelin in still straight - trying to find parts for that would be a challenge.

XR06T · 03-09-2007, 11:34 AM

ummmm, looking at the lambs.. wtf!!

**cs123** · 03-09-2007, 11:37 AM

I've driven only ABS cars now for the past 7 years and it worries me to think of what it has done to my driving style. The mash your foot to the floor and everything is OK style of ABS does not transfer all that well to older non-ABS cars.

The "cocoon-of-steel" feel is an interesting point. While older cars do not crumple like modern cars are designed to I feel a lot safer in my BA than say a XE. As far as I'm concerned I'm happy to walk away from a trashed modern car with less injuries.

Hally · 03-09-2007, 11:55 AM

Rod,

I hear your pain. I looped my Mustang recently in the wet. I hadn't driven it for a couple of months, guy pulled out in front of me from a driveway, hitthe brakes and the rears locked up. Camber of the road pitched me sideways and it didn't correct in time. In the end all was ok but you sure do get used to the modern safety systems of newer cars.

Casper · 03-09-2007, 12:08 PM

The AMC's were not known for their brakes to start with but thats now excuse for basically being run off the road by a moron. Even in an AU or BA you would still have been in trouble in that sort of situation so I think you handled it pretty well overall (with the exception of 4 trashed tyres).

Quote:

Originally Posted by OzJavelin

I wonder how much damage an AMC Javelin would have done to an early nineties Magna front-righthand door?

Probably a little less then the owner of the AMC Javelin's fist would have done to the owner of an early nineties Magna's head if it had happened.

madmelon · 03-09-2007, 01:35 PM

80km/h-0 in mums EL wagon with no abs when my traumatized girlfriend of the time made a bid for death. Fortunately I realised what she was going to do and got on the anchors before she got the door open. She was ok but those soft Goodyear Eagle F1's never recovered and the shuddering for the next 20,000km was terrible.
Several incicents in the Jag when the ABS was on the blink also- wonder the dammage 2 tonnes of British steel would have tone to the drivers door of an EL sedan...or the rear end of a VX commo...or the front end of a 80's magna/sigma.

I hate not having ABS and I don't intend to ever buy another car without it (or let my mum\siblings do so).

blownba · 03-09-2007, 09:55 PM

I worked on a short wheelbase cruiser many years ago where the guy had fitted the standard V8 conversion ect and we dyno'ed it for him but he had fitted ABS to it. I don't recall what it was from but I saw the way the wheel sensor were done and the way it was all plumbed up and the module fitment ect. and I would have to say it was more than impressive he really was one smart cookie.
Being older now and having a better understanding of various ABS systems I can see how much hard work this would be to carry out.
Finding a matching 'donor' car would be the greatest issue though as the algorithms that are written for the ECU's are obviously vehicle specific and may not work on a vehicle of different dimensions, weight ect.

mik · 03-09-2007, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OzJavelin

Over the years I've owned a lot or early iron, and they are great fun, but despite their "cocoon-of-steel" feel for safety their accident avoidance mechanisms they are "somewhat" lacking. So far this year I've had to make maybe six emergency stops in my modern daily drivers to avoid roos .. and even in the empty AU ute it's pulled up great with ABS. However yesterday I had to try a similar thing in the '69 Javelin and it's wasn't pretty ..

I was driving the Javelin home from a Fathers Day car show about 11:30am. In my own street about 1km from home a guy in a crappy old Magna comes over the crest of the hill on my side of the road (80km/h speed limit). I was shocked and started to brake and move even further left .. but hit the loose stones on the side of the road and car started to skid. I took my foot off the brakes and tried to steer, but I was already rotating right so I just jammed on the brakes to stop myself moving onto the right-hand side of the road. In the meantime the guy must have seen me an swerved back to his side of the road. He stopped OK and I stopped sideways in a cloud of tyre smoke. When he came back to see if I was OK (I was) his excuse was that he was looking at the lambs in the paddock ..... and that this isn't usually a busy road!?

Only problem now is that I have four flatspotted tyres .. but it could have been worse for both people and property. I wonder how much damage an AMC Javelin would have done to an early nineties Magna front-righthand door?

Anyway I miss my ABS. It would be nice to easily retrofit it to older cars .. at the very least it would save money on tyres and replacement underpants.

Rod.

i know how you feel, our family hack a worn out nissan bluebird 1986 (jelly suspended dung box) was absolutley frightening on the road (went to scrap yard last week

) had a habit in a hard stop to lock brakes with great ease, my young brother had a couple of rear enders because of this, i`m quite sure had it had abs it would have come out unscathed it was always a relief to hop in the au.

Van D · 04-09-2007, 12:01 AM

Why don't people just learn to not mash the pedal as first instinct?

Driving in my XF van full of heavy music gear on the freeway one night, I was sitting behind a big van with painted windows, he was slowing down a bit (we were in the right lane), so i changed into the centre lane and WHAMO! Cars were dead still about a couple hundred metres away (i'm not good with distance, it was damn close though). I "slammed" the brakes, but as soon as they began to lock up, took the foot off and applied it again, pumping the pedal and feeling the brakes for the last bit when I was thinking straighter. I *just* pulled up in time, where the chick behind me (in a '98 laser) didn't.. lol

I've driven cars with ABS, and yes they do help, especially at times when you hit the dirt/gravel unexpected.. But seems to me not many people brake correctly these days anyway (especially drivers my age).

Driving the XT wagon with non power assisted drums all round for the last month has gotten me used to getting the most stopping out of not much brake :P

PS. Ozjavelin, that wasn't related to you! That wouldn't have been a fun situation.

madmelon · 04-09-2007, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Van D

Why don't people just learn to not mash the pedal as first instinct?

...because it's the first instinct...
The massive lockup in the wagon was the first emergency incident I'd had (3 years ago now) and I was more concerned about where the person beside me was than the relative velocity between tyre and ground.
I've since had many incidents of morons pulling out in front of me and not knowing whether the ABS was working or not has meant i've learnt how to brake much more effectively. Unfortunately, that changes with every vehicle/tyre/tyre pressure/vehicle load/etc.
...actually had one between this post and the last I made. Not cool at all when you almost re arrange the back end of a brand new Merc.

Jayden · 04-09-2007, 12:21 AM

Stopping without ABS and without locking your tyres is an art form. Unfortunately most people have 0.1 seconds to learn. Ive only had to do sudden stops a few times, and they wernt over 50kph so at 80 it would have been one hell of a nasty experience I imagine. Thats certainly one of the things stopping me from getting an old car. one of the many many things. its a bit like: go go go. stop. stop. stop. stop. stop. stop. stop. stop. stop. :P

Monkey · 04-09-2007, 12:51 AM

Not a big fan of ABS, rather just pay attention and do it myself.
Im sure it gives the average driver a false sense of security that lets them think and do things other than driving.

Hunter · 04-09-2007, 08:16 AM

Honestly I doubt most people could practice proper braking and pulse it exactly the right way in the seconds or fractions of seconds that you have in an emergency...

I mean if you want to go prove to me in an RTA hazard peception test sim then by all means do so but seriously you might be able to do it when you're concentrating on the technique but in an emergency? Different story.

Monkey · 04-09-2007, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter

Honestly I doubt most people could practice proper braking and pulse it exactly the right way in the seconds or fractions of seconds that you have in an emergency...

I mean if you want to go prove to me in an RTA hazard peception test sim then by all means do so but seriously you might be able to do it when you're concentrating on the technique but in an emergency? Different story.

I doubt most people drive to the conditions let alone know how to brake safely.
ABS is a great driving aid but its not going to save a late reacting preoccupied driver every time .

Hunter · 04-09-2007, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monkey Boy

I doubt most people drive to the conditions let alone know how to brake safely.
ABS is a great driving aid but its not going to save a late reacting preoccupied driver every time .

I think you're missing my point which was that it would probably help you if you were in a totally unexpected situation e.g. person runs out in front of the car. If you're doing 60 and some idiot steps out literally meters from you, you could be a race driver but you aren't going to pull it up in time, even if you do react, the act of physically manipulating the brakes and doing so in the right way is just not physically possible in such a short space of time.

**Full Noise** · 04-09-2007, 12:17 PM

Gee, Rod. I’m supprised that you said it was a Magna. It would sound a little more dramatic if you said that there were two drug crazed, speeding B-doubles drag racing on a narrow one lane piece of bitumen looking for Javelins to run off the road.

Bloody hell… Can I use this in my signature?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter

its not every day you expect someone to do something so stupid.

I expect everyone to do something stupid in front of me. In fact, it's a rare day when someone doesn't.

04-09-2007, 12:29 PM

If you are a fairly "regular" driver, and have certain death staring in your face, you are not going to let go of the brake pedal, those who do think to take it of the pedal usually have difficulty as their bracing themselves. Whether YOU think you need it or not, 99% of the public do need ABS.

My skilled driver's course instructor told me he's seen brake pedals snap when onsite at a car accident.

Hunter · 04-09-2007, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Full Noise

I expect everyone to do something stupid in front of me. In fact, it's a rare day when someone doesn't.

No I expect stupidity, just not THAT level of stupidity. Maybe I need to revise the stupid-o-meter to have a wider range?

Bill_R · 04-09-2007, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackLS

Whether YOU think you need it or not, 99% of the public do need ABS.

.

I agree with that. It seems to be an ego thing that "I don't need ABS. I know how to brake". Well, it can take a lot of practice and not just ego or knowledge to hold a car on the edge of when the wheels are just about to lock and get max braking efficiency. Then there's variability in road surface that you really can't account for.
There are a few cases where it is desirable to actually lock the wheels to get the car pointed where you want it in an emergency but, for the most cases, I'd say ABS is a necessity in a modern road car.

Van D · 04-09-2007, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill_R

I agree with that. It seems to be an ego thing that "I don't need ABS. I know how to brake". Well, it can take a lot of practice and not just ego or knowledge to hold a car on the edge of when the wheels are just about to lock and get max braking efficiency. Then there's variability in road surface that you really can't account for.
There are a few cases where it is desirable to actually lock the wheels to get the car pointed where you want it in an emergency but, for the most cases, I'd say ABS is a necessity in a modern road car.

It may be an ego thing to some, but for me it's not.

People have mentioned that you can't learn how to control your brakes in the 0.1 second before an accident, that's why you learn to drive the car BEFORE you get your license.

This isn't meant to be big headed, to me it's common sense, but before I went for my license I made sure I went to private roads and practiced emergency braking as much as I practiced parking. I also did the same on gravel, grass etc to get a rough feel how the car would react (every surface is going to be different of course). And even now, I still do if i'm driving along a quiet back dirt/gravel road, i'll sometimes give it a big squirt and stop as quick as I can.

Whilst I agree 99% of the general public 'need' ABS, I don't think that there should be that need in the first place. They should at least be taught and shown what to do. What happens if they're taught in and drive an ABS car, only to drive a car without it later on and come unstuck?

I also acknowledge that even when knowing the skills, in an emergency/unexpected situation you might not think properly of what to do, especially when it's close quarters.. But I know it's saved my back side (or front end) in emergency situations a couple times at least.

Falcon_Phill · 04-09-2007, 07:35 PM

I skidded for about 20 meters the first time I braked hard in my XP (damn red light cameras) I had previously being driving an XF that stopped much better, Im not sure what the exact differences are in the two cars braking systems.

ardei · 04-09-2007, 08:28 PM

I've done the majority of my emergency stops in an automatic car with ABS in the two years that I was driving. So when I first had to perform an emergency stop in my manual, non-ABS Fiesta (when a woman of a certain nationality driving in the Hurstville area.... pulled out from a kerbside of me at 10pm without indicating) my normal reaction was brakes to the floor and that's it.

Luckily I was only doing 40km/h and pulled up within an inch of the car's quarter panel. Unfortunately, because I was used to ABS and Automatic, I locked up the wheels and stalled the engine by not pushing the clutch in. The stupid woman gave ME the biggest dirty in the world and then drove off rapidly, even though I was honking her to pull over after I turned my car back on.

I know that if I had learnt on a non-ABS car from the start, I would have the instinctive reactions to pull up in a much shorter distance, which is why I'm planning on doing an Ian Luff defensive driving course when I finish with my HSC. But if I had ABS in the car, I could pull up shorter yet. Alas I don't, so I have to adapt to the conditions I'm given.

Bill_R · 04-09-2007, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Van D

... to me it's common sense, but before I went for my license I made sure I went to private roads and practiced emergency braking as much as I practiced parking. I also did the same on gravel, grass etc to get a rough feel how the car would react (every surface is going to be different of course). And even now, I still do if i'm driving along a quiet back dirt/gravel road, i'll sometimes give it a big squirt and stop as quick as I can.

Whilst I agree 99% of the general public 'need' ABS, I don't think that there should be that need in the first place. They should at least be taught and shown what to do. What happens if they're taught in and drive an ABS car, only to drive a car without it later on and come unstuck?

..

I did the same plus drove buggies long before I was licensed and then raced competitively on and off for the first 12 years after my license.
I agree that emergency braking and good braking technique *should* be taught. I don't think the level of dedication by the average motorist would be enough to get through it. I also don't think the licensing structure would support it. The larger percentage of "regular" drivers wouldn't' even think of undertaking the practice. That's whom we need to cater to and I think the majority means that ABS should be mandatory on new cars.

Bill_R · 04-09-2007, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ardei

...
I know that if I had learnt on a non-ABS car from the start, I would have the instinctive reactions to pull up in a much shorter distance, which is why I'm planning on doing an Ian Luff defensive driving course when I finish with my HSC. But if I had ABS in the car, I could pull up shorter yet. Alas I don't, so I have to adapt to the conditions I'm given.

some of the car control courses actually do that now. I knwo one on a skidpan on the Gold Coast does. If you drive a car with ABS they will also put you in one without ABS. If you drive an Auto they might put you in a manual and vice versa.

Van D · 04-09-2007, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill_R

I don't think the level of dedication by the average motorist would be enough to get through it. I also don't think the licensing structure would support it. The larger percentage of "regular" drivers wouldn't' even think of undertaking the practice. That's whom we need to cater to and I think the majority means that ABS should be mandatory on new cars.

Sad truth! Especially those first three sentences. Too many drivers, especially younger, treat driving is a right :togo:

I have no solution.. so to quote Anchorman.. Bob dylan once wrote, the times they are a changing.

Hunter · 04-09-2007, 11:57 PM

I think one thing people overlook when talking about advanced driver courses or racing is that when you're on a track doing whatever you're EXPECTING to have to use advanced braking techniques.

Hell I can do them easily enough when I'm intending to but in an emergency its extremely difficult and unless you're the guy from kungfu or clint eastwood, I doubt you would react quick enough AND manipulate the pedal in precisely the right way.

OzJavelin · 05-09-2007, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter

Hell I can do them easily enough when I'm intending to but in an emergency its extremely difficult and unless you're the guy from kungfu or clint eastwood, I doubt you would react quick enough AND manipulate the pedal in precisely the right way.

Yep .. I gave it a half-assed attempt and modulating the pedal, but I think I just made it worse by causing weight transfer so when I got back on the brakes again I was already in a bad way ..
I drove past there again yesterday and had a good look at the marks on the road. Looked like RHR locked up first then on my second attempt both RHR and LHF locked up as I started to rotate. I can see where the LHF first locked up in the loose stuff on the side of the road, so I'm not sure if I hadn't hit that if I could have kept it straight?