Wire Safety Barriers - Look what they do to low cars!

[The Stylist]

On the news last night concerning the death of that bike rider who severed near Wellington, there was mention of some type of covers that stopped the support columns being exposed. Maybe they should invest in this type of solution?

[Squalo]

Originally Posted by The Stylist

On the news last night concerning the death of that bike rider who severed near Wellington, there was mention of some type of covers that stopped the support columns being exposed. Maybe they should invest in this type of solution?

Too expensive - certainly not worth the cost involved just to ensure that 2.2% of (legally entitled, and charged accordingly) road users might survive an impact with such a barrier. But we'll build ramps, lifts, and whatever else is needed for the x% of people in wheelchairs, and bugger the cost.

Forget about the WRBs down the centre of freeways (where only negligence or acts of Dog cause vehicles to cross over) - how about WRBs on corners? They are the ones that put riders at most risk.

I have a copy of a UK Brifen promotional video (Brifen makes WRBs) and it has so much mis-information in it it's breathtaking. When you see actual footage of vehicles hitting this stuff you realise just how much of a danger it is to motorcyclists. But to take the video on face-value you'd think it was Dog's gift to road safety engineers.

Re. the NZ rider fatality - it's very rare for any such information to become public, usually the public servants responsible for managing these things manage to bury any unsavoury details of rider maimings/fatalities when it comes to this.

Oxy-acetalyne would fix it. Destroy enough WRBs, with the resultant cost blow-out, and perhaps the message would sink in. Anyone insomniacs out there with an oxy kit and a non-descript car?

[BadMac]

Originally Posted by The Stylist

On the news last night concerning the death of that bike rider who severed near Wellington, there was mention of some type of covers that stopped the support columns being exposed. Maybe they should invest in this type of solution?

The NZ guy was on the Auckland motorway. He was reported to be doing about 150KPH, wire ropes or not, hitting any barrier is pretty likely to be fatal.

I drive that road most days. almost 70 KM of it is now wire roped and I can tell you everyday there are signs of cars hitting the barriers, it has stopped MANY fatal accidents. Yesterday I got caught in a masive traffic Jam, a Truck has crossed the median (wire rope) and hit 2 onvoming cars, then gone on into a tree. nobody killed, truck driver needed to be cut out. Barriers made no difference, but other types may have produced projectiles. Yes wire ropes have there issues, but right now they seem to be effective (except if you ride a motor bike).

[MAGPIE]

Originally Posted by BadMac

Yes wire ropes have there issues, but right now they seem to be effective (except if you ride a motor bike).

That is my point, they are not effective in stopping vehicles (especially trucks) crossing over into oncoming traffic. I have personally seen two accidents (and seen many more in the media) where vehicles have made it through the wire rope barriers into oncoming traffic. Solid concrete type barriers are far more effective 15 years as a emergency service worker has proven that to me.

[Keepleft]

Originally Posted by MAGPIE

That is my point, they are not effective in stopping vehicles (especially trucks) crossing over into oncoming traffic. I have personally seen two accidents (and seen many more in the media) where vehicles have made it through the wire rope barriers into oncoming traffic. Solid concrete type barriers are far more effective 15 years as a emergency service worker has proven that to me.

More ignorant bull$hit.

Many years ago, on the F3 here in NSW at a then newly constructed 3-4km Ourimbah length of three laned freeway, we had NO median barrier, but instead vegetation and a 13 metre wide seperation.

I notified RTA to install barrier soon after opening citing within a few months a few 'lucky' misses - where vehicels had entered and ended up on the other side.

Naturally, the managers back then respionded "The road is a 'world class' section of freeway that does not require median barrier, but we'll keep an eye on things".

A couple of months later, a pair of young blokes crossed the median into the right lane and impacted a few other cars, killing a 70plus year old lady.

Okay fair enough, who the F cares right?

So, I dragged out the correspondence, threatended legal action and suggsted I'd then give that correspondence to that ladies family, AND to other aggrieved families. On the basis that it is better to capture wayward vehicles, leaving them for police action, rather than having them entering opposing traffic.

The other option would be to uninstall the median barriers and reduce the speed limit, for safety from 110km/h to something like 90-100km/h.

I shortly recieved an urgent phone call asking that I not release the correspondence and that barrier would be installed at the next financial release of funding, a few months off. And so it was.

EVERY EU motorway has median barrier, even where that median seperates out beyond 100 metres. There is NO reason why we should not do the same.

Now to date, that section of freeway has had hundred of impacts and each time the crews replace columns and re-tighten the 4 strands. Hardly difficult.

I do have some sympathy with Brifen in their concern with another brand said to have 'cable' seperation issues'.

Do not make the mistake of thinking we are going to have jersey as a full-on replacement, that would in safety terms be a step backwards, but it does serve its niche purpose.

Steel W-Beam is an option sometimes, but a vehicle impacing this suffers a heavier hit than with wire-rope systems.

ALL BARRIER, have had vehicle cross over them. We had a dope on the F3 at Hawkesbury some years ago who managed, at speed, to end up on TOP of the jersey 'sommersulting' along it. He of course was killed.

We've seen steel guardrail enter a few cars firewalls into the passenger compartment, and its not just at start or end treatments eaither. Done by beam seperation from support.

Motor racing experience will tell you even sandtraps are not fail safe.

But wire rope systems have saved many more lives than they have cost. We have one or maybe two loss events, owing 'death at barrier' I can recall, the NZ one and another reportedly in VIC.

You can either remove the median barrier and suffer forced lower speed limits to offset increased cross over outcome, and miss out raising allowances for these roads.

At the end of the day, in the meantime, till technical improvement is made and installed, IF individual motorcyclists ride like tools, they have much greater likelihood of being killed or injured. We have a rider safety issue on the old Pacific Highway, lord fobid they hit more trees of guardrail.

As a small minority of road users, the efforts to remove median barrier will cost many more lives than are lost, and that is a fact.

It will *not* happen. This group will need to be patient as technical experts set about improving systems and standards.

[MAGPIE]

WTF are you on ?

Nobody wants to get rid of median barriers, there are just better options out there than the wire rope type

FFS man open your eyes :

[Keepleft]

Originally Posted by MAGPIE

WTF are you on ?

Nobody wants to get rid of median barriers, there are just better options out there than the wire rope type

FFS man open your eyes

Solid concrete type barriers are far more effective 15 years as a emergency service worker has proven that to me.

I've given you the other two primary engineering 'OPTIONS' above Fred, - now read, comprehend and 'learn' about them, if you can't do that then don't bother responding your simply wasting time.

Have an issue? Bring it before parliament where you can be duly interrogated.

* I've sent Admin an edit for the above post.

Here is the link for the Ingall company (WRSB = flexfence), here you can learn more about what is available to date:-
http://www.ingalcivil.com.au/

Elsewhere is a link to Brifen, the initial company that installed the wire rope systems in GB and US.

Patience.

[Squalo]

Originally Posted by Keepleft

At the end of the day, in the meantime, till technical improvement is made and installed, IF individual motorcyclists ride like tools, they have much greater likelihood of being killed or injured. We have a rider safety issue on the old Pacific Highway, lord fobid they hit more trees of guardrail.

As a small minority of road users, the efforts to remove median barrier will cost many more lives than are lost, and that is a fact.

It will *not* happen. This group will need to be patient as technical experts set about improving systems and standards.

Keepleft, I'm generally in agreement with you - and appreciate the coalface perspective you bring - but the issue is not about motorcyclists riding dangerously. I can be cornering at 80km/h (the speed limit) on Mount Razorback (south of Camden) and lose traction due to a diesel spill - suddenly I'm sliding towards WRB. My full leathers, back protector, armoured boots/gloves are all good and well while I'm sliding, it's what happens at the end of the slide that is the problem.

Median barrier protection, while still an issue for riders (I've gone sideways in the rain while travelling in a straight line), is best served by WRB when you're talking cost-effective protection. If cost is not a factor I'd guess that concrete is best? But WRB around corners is bad bad news.

[BadMac]

Originally Posted by Squalo

Keepleft, I'm generally in agreement with you - and appreciate the coalface perspective you bring - but the issue is not about motorcyclists riding dangerously. I can be cornering at 80km/h (the speed limit) on Mount Razorback (south of Camden) and lose traction due to a diesel spill - suddenly I'm sliding towards WRB. My full leathers, back protector, armoured boots/gloves are all good and well while I'm sliding, it's what happens at the end of the slide that is the problem.

What happens when its a country road lined with trees? what about 2 lane roads with a painted strip and oncoming traffic. Diesel spills and unexpected slippery conditions can be encountered at any time. I have personally witnessed the wire ropes preventing a head on crash at 100KMH, I have also seen the results of a truck hitting the concrete median and propelling it into the path of oncoming traffic (3 dead). I have also seen t6he results of cars and trucks going over the concrete barrier and cars cross 30+ meters of median strip to have head on fatals. I have even witnessed a trailer come loose from a truck, flip over the central median and take out the car behind me (I do 50,000+KM per year). There is no perfect answer. Right now Wire ropes are effective, as are steel and concrete barriers in the right places. There is no one universal answer and no perfect solution (other than driving at 20KPH (and even then some will die).

[Keepleft]

Right Squalo, -

Lets again first understand and appreciate that we have two competing brands of wire rope systems in Australia. (Indeed worldwide). These will meet TL3 or TL4 for given applications.

Each brand now reports to have 'add-on' items that helps reduce impact injury potential specifically for the motorcyclist, to quote Brifen:-

The primary danger for Motorcyclists who fall from their machines is the intermediate posts; this is true for all post and Beam Safety Fences. A suitable motorcycle rider protection system has been installed on Brifen and we can advise on this.

And we take a look, again, at competitor Ingal -
http://www.ingalcivil.com.au/products.php?id=11&leaf=y
The black add-on you see here 'looks' like a soft foam, but I'd suggest it is 'better' than a first glance POV determination as being something 'weak or insufficient'. Don't knock it.

Then from Ingall we have this modification to traditional W-Beam, motorcycle activists groups need to start crowing about about this and demand its install where practicable, note the lower flashing:-
http://www.ingalcivil.com.au/products.php?id=10&leaf=y
Without being able to tell from the pic - we still have the issue of vertical columns being naked - 'I think', and this is where we also get injury. But, it is an improvement in the critical slide impact zone where it counts.

A downside, in some regions, cost aside per kilometre of install, is that native crawling wildlife is then trapped for the length of install. This means the crawling land tank might decide to waddle back across the road. So application needs be chosen carefully. Issue of EIS etc.

It is therefore prudent, for motorcycle activist groups, that instead of campaigning for removal of, - in particular 'median' WRSB barrier, that they ask the authority to have the specific manufacturer - for 'the given length in question', to 'install' the updated softening technologies.

We then set about, by standards process, effectively 'mandating' the counter measure - for more critical delinneation applications (curves/bends), and for other lengths. We then add-in this cost to the cost of road building projects on that basis.

WRSB is and remains the 'softest' impact a cage or heavy vehicle will have. All barriers are capable of being overcome by particular event wayward vehicles and riders.

I have heard some activists, 'demand' removal of all median barriers and its replacement with soft shrubs and native vegetation, a reason why I am defensive about this subject, and a reason why I advocate future speed allowances that would be dropped if extremists get their way, AND for the fact I've seem many a saved scene that in all probability would have been deadly.

Hippies and outlaws have no place in traffic safety aside from doing the right thing on the roads, the suggestion to use plant life instead is only suited to reducing headlight glare, and offers a minor 'softening' of impact speed, but most often, based on remaining F3 unbarriered median lengths, is not enough to prevent cross-over.

Patience.

[Squalo]

Originally Posted by BadMac

What happens when its a country road lined with trees?

I'm yet to see trees used as a safety barrier. Perhaps they do it differently where you come from.

The point made was that WRB is bad for motorcyclists. Before WRB what did we have - Armco, among other barriers. Riders hit Armco too, with bad results, but not as bad as when they hit WRB.

Barriers are essential in certain part of the road, no-one will deny that. But if they are going to be installed, let's install them with regard to ALL road users.
I can legally buy and ride a motorcycle. Why then are my taxes directed towards road safety measures that do not allow for me? I am patiently waiting for an answer to this question, but I suspect that no-one here has such an answer (I'm sorry but the 2.2% rubbish fails dismally - as per my analogy regardling wheelchair-bound members of our population).

Originally Posted by Keepleft

It is therefore prudent, for motorcycle activist groups, that instead of campaigning for removal of, - in particular 'median' WRSB barrier, that they ask the authority to have the specific manufacturer - for 'the given length in question', to 'install' the updated softening technologies.

We then set about, by standards process, effectively 'mandating' the counter measure - for more critical delinneation applications (curves/bends), and for other lengths. We then add-in this cost to the cost of road building projects on that basis.

Good information, as usual - thank you. I am amazed to hear that people have/are actively campaigning for vegetation as a barrier measure - perhaps they also campaign for vehicles to be made out of balsa.

Your suggestion to pursue the softening technologies has merit and is perhaps the best route at this stage. Motorcycle use is ever-increasing, so in the long term a better answer is needed, but we'll only get there by doing what is possible now.

I'm yet to check out all of the links you've provided but I will do so and write again.

[Gammaboy]

The primary danger for Motorcyclists who fall from their machines is the intermediate posts; this is true for all post and Beam Safety Fences. A suitable motorcycle rider protection system has been installed on Brifen and we can advise on this.

Yes, sliding into the uprights is always an issue with wire or armco. However, having spent years as a Pushie rider/racer and now as a motorcyclist aswell, I can say without a doubt that my biggest issue is with the fact that with armco you can rattle along it (while staying vertical) and recieve only minor injuries, as I found out when crowded by a car driver when on a training ride in the Adelaide hills, while with the Wire barriers wire itself will abrade a couple of nice grooves in your legs, and the uprights will snag you (particularly the top corners), potentially doing serious damage (replace potentially with definitly on a motorbike).
The wire ropes, while I'm sure they're cheaper and better for cars, have the potential to escalate a non-event and unreported incident with armco (come into a corner and stand the bike up to dodge debris/gravel/oil and run wide, rattle along the armco with minimal damage, vs the same with the wire barriers snagging knees, fairings, even potentially snagging the bike in such a way as to chuck you down the road). The softening techniques don't treat this aspect at all.

Keepleft, as much as you keep spouting about how motorcycles are only a small percentage of the registrations in australia, us motorcyclists are overrepresented in the fatalities and injuries.
I personally don't know anyone dead or disabled from being in a car accident. Unfortunately I can't say the same about bikes (And its mostly been the cars fault), and I know alot more car drivers than bike riders.

Long and the short of it is the Wire barriers are cost cutting masqueraded as "Improving safety". Open your eyes you fool.