Ford lose $87 million

[Fordmuscle1965]

Could be worse!

http://editorial.carsales.com.au/car...w/2931888.aspx

[IH8HSV]

I find all of this so confusing...

The BA/BF is such a great car both in looks and design and every time you go out the door for a drive your bound to see many of them. - So why are the sales figures so bad.
These figures seem worse now then when the AU came out - where many thought the design was terrible ( however i like ).

What are Holden doing any different???

I know I'm only basing this on one particular model but these are obviously the cars where the most of the money is spent on design.

So whats going on!

[LeadFoot81]

Ford Oz sell more locally built cars locally, than either Holden or Toyota. The sales figures have been particularly bad for the BFs run to the finish, but not that bad considering it was very much an outdated model compared to the VE and Aurion (at least in looks inside and out)

The large car segment has shrunk considerably since the EL-AU days so its not really that fair to compare BF sales to any previous Falcon.

What are Holden doing different? The exports prop up their sales figures, but arent making them much (if any) money.

Ford Oz has recorded such a big loss because of R&D costs on FG, plus the extra money its spent on infrastructure.

[swapper]

Ford Oz sell more locally built cars locally, than either Holden or Toyota

.....ahhh i think your mistaken, commodore out sells falcon

[|||]

Originally Posted by swapper

.....ahhh i think your mistaken, commodore out sells falcon

i think he meant falcon + territory > commodore

[Buddy 1]

Holden know how to Market there Products.

VE was a better vehicle in Many ways then the BFII (not in all ways).

And large cars just do not sell as well now than in the AU Era.

[swapper]

Originally Posted by |||

i think he meant falcon + territory > commodore

Yep, and even with territory Holden tend to sell around 1000 locally built cars extra each month

have a look at Vfacts

[sleekism]

Originally Posted by swapper

Yep, and even with territory Holden tend to sell around 1000 locally built cars extra each month

have a look at Vfacts

Um Ford sell about 1500 Territories a month and the Falcon Ute mostly outsells the Commodore Ute.

I'm simply annoyed that they post a loss after Tom Gorman was talking about them turning a profit for 2007. He has to be the worst President in Ford Australias history and even the new President doesn't understand why he wasn't chasing Diesel and Exports. Why was he in power so long?? This is what the FG Falcon should have had on release which I believe is reasonable:

-A diesel option

-An export program which thank God Bill Osbourne is chasing

-An upgraded LPG Engine

-The return of the 3.2L Straight Six. 180kw would be sufficient and 9.8L/100km ADR. Standard on XT and G6

-The 4.0L should have had 205kw and 400nm of torque and be standard on XR6 and G6E

-Perhaps considering making the ZF 6 Speed Auto standard across the range to combat Aurion.

XR6 Turbo to have 280kw? and XR8 289kw?? Just so it doesn't seem like they dropped the BF FPV engine into the FG. Plus 289kw has historic value for Ford.

[swapper]

Um Ford sell about 1500 Territories a month and the Falcon Ute mostly outsells the Commodore Ute.

i understand that....but the simple fact is Holden sell more locally produced cars than Ford

April Vfact for example

Ford Fairlane 11
Ford Falcon 1,884
Ford Falcon Ute 877
Ford Territory 1,073

total 3,845

Now Holden

Holden Commodore 3,324
Holden Statesman 86
Holden Utility 4X2 1,269
Holden Caprice 145

total 4,824

and i understand that these numbers arent perfect as this is the VE against BF, and many people are holding out for the FG. But the fact is Holden produce more locally sold cars than Ford, it has been that way for quite some time

[sleekism]

Originally Posted by swapper

i understand that....but the simple fact is Holden sell more locally produced cars than Ford

April Vfact for example

Ford Fairlane 11
Ford Falcon 1,884
Ford Falcon Ute 877
Ford Territory 1,073

total 3,845

Now Holden

Holden Commodore 3,324
Holden Statesman 86
Holden Utility 4X2 1,269
Holden Caprice 145

total 4,824

and i understand that these numbers arent perfect as this is the VE against BF, and many people are holding out for the FG. But the fact is Holden produce more locally sold cars than Ford, it has been that way for quite some time

No I don't believe that the April figure for the Falcon is half of what they usually sell.

I'm pretty sure for 2007 it was something like:

Falcon: 37,000
Falcon Ute: 12,000
Territory: 18,000
Total: 67,000

Commodore: 57,000
Commodore Ute: 10,000
Statesman/Caprice: 2000
Total: 69,000

I know the figure was REALLY close in 2007 and since the introduction of the Territory Ford has been ahead especially considering the Falcon Ute largely outsells the Commodore Ute. Anybody have any figures?

[4Vman]

It takes a long time to see a sales trend reverse for a product that has a normal product purchase lease cycle of 4 or 5 years, especially when a large % of commodores and falcons are leased.....
The FG may arrest declining sales but it will take a while for it to "switch" buyers from one brand to another, because people don't normally re purchase till their leases run out.

[EgoFG]

Originally Posted by swapper

i understand that....but the simple fact is Holden sell more locally produced cars than Ford

Interestingly for the first time last month from memory Holden actually manufactured in Au a higher percentage of the cars they sold than Ford

holden have for quite a while relied more (percentage) on imports than Ford.

Yes, they sell more locally made cars than ford - with the exception of the first few month of Territory sales.

but a larger percentage of holden sales quantity is usually from imports.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by sleekism

-The return of the 3.2L Straight Six. 180kw would be sufficient and 9.8L/100km ADR. Standard on XT and G6

Some of the engineers allegedly trialled a smaller capacity straight 6, something like 3 litres, and it made bugger all difference to fuel economy, because although the capacity might be a bit smaller its still essentially the same engine with the same frictional properties, plus it needed to be worked a bit harder because power and torque were down. Any further development was then abandoned, but it would have been abandoned any way when they kill the straight 6 off.

[sleekism]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Some of the engineers allegedly trialled a smaller capacity straight 6, something like 3 litres, and it made bugger all difference to fuel economy, because although the capacity might be a bit smaller its still essentially the same engine with the same frictional properties, plus it needed to be worked a bit harder because power and torque were down. Any further development was then abandoned, but it would have been abandoned any way when they kill the straight 6 off.

Cmon you can't tell me 800cc less capacity isn't going to make a difference.

I have a 3.3L XE and a 4.1L XE and the 3.3 uses less fuel.

The 4.0l with ZF Auto uses 10.1 if they could just save 0.3L more they would have class leading fuel economy which they could stick in the G6 and XT. They could then stick the 4.0L in the G6E and XR6 which would make them more than just a tarted up base model.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by sleekism

Cmon you can't tell me 800cc less capacity isn't going to make a difference.

I have a 3.3L XE and a 4.1L XE and the 3.3 uses less fuel.

The 4.0l with ZF Auto uses 10.1 if they could just save 0.3L more they would have class leading fuel economy which they could stick in the G6 and XT. They could then stick the 4.0L in the G6E and XR6 which would make them more than just a tarted up base model.

The numbers didn't lie. There was no advantage worth spending dollars on to achieve.

[GTP290]

They should upgrade the LPG engine and mate it with at least the 5 speed box and ESC. They have to pursue the export market(which they are going to do)

I think the 195kw for the petrol 6 is quite enough power considering it leaves the Holden 6 for dead and has much more torque than the Toyota Aurion which prob makes it the pick of the Aussie sixes by far.

I dont think giving the turbo 280 kws would make much difference considering the torque it makes outstrips the best from Ford and Holden V8s.
What they need is an upgraded Territory design, Factory LPG and deisel engine for the Territory, Deisel option for Falcon.

I would of like to have seen 302 kws for XR8 and 315 as is for GT and GT-P, and a supercharged 5.4 V8 for a limited edition road/track GT-HO edition-ala W427

[IH8HSV]

So what does make a car manufacturer better?!

I may be a bit off topic here and once again only comparing the falcon to the commodore but what makes people buy one model over the other.

So according to sales figures why would someone buy a 6 cyl VE over a 6cyl BF?!!

Cant be due to fuel economy because both cars average 10-15l per 100ks.
Cant be due to engine kilowatts cause again very similar figures ( if anything the ford turbo 6 is in a class of its own ).
Cant be due to the general internal and external appearances because again both cars look great and come with similar options.
And cant be due to post customer care & warranties because both are terrible at that :

So what is it.

Im not after the debate of ford vs holden but just after a reason of what people are looking for in a car and why the ford sales figures are so low.

[RspecAU]

I think if Ford can't knock holden of it's pirch of second in sales with the FG, Ford in australia will be in trouble. There advertising hasn't been good enough over the years and they really need to step that up and as for merchandise that has been bloody awfull to. No wander they lost 87 million and to spend 3.3 billion on this car that the base model dosn't have cup holders and a I6 turbo that whips the XR8...what were they thinking, there goes fleet sales down the shitter. It wouldn't hurt Ford to start listening to what the Ford poeple want in a car instead of some over paid suit in an office. I really hope thay can turn it around but i'm doubting that they can.

[Falc'man]

This is from another forum...

Originally Posted by JPD80(FAF)

Accountants can do many things with figures,
The one thing they can't do is invent a profit.

Ford Results:
2003: $154.6 M
2004: $185.6 M
2005: $148.2 M
2006: $40.3 M Loss
2007: $87.2 M Loss


Holden Results:
2003 $286.0M
2004 $216.6M
2005 $144.6 M Loss
2006 $146.6 M Loss
2007 Unknown

Anyone want to guess how Red Team went last year?

[JAZSXY]

The fact that Holden export
A: Engines
B: Cars

Is the reason they turn in profits rather than loss's.

Ford should be doing the same in section B.

[Windsor220]

Originally Posted by JAZSXY

The fact that Holden export
A: Engines
B: Cars

Is the reason they turn in profits rather than loss's.

Ford should be doing the same in section B.

You may have missed the post above. Holden definitely hasn't been making a profit from the last couple of years. 2007 is still unknown though.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by JAZSXY

The fact that Holden export
A: Engines
B: Cars

Is the reason they turn in profits rather than loss's.

Ford should be doing the same in section B.

HUH?? holden have recorded losses for the past 2 years, bigger losses than Ford....
The export market is hurting them.

[swapper]

the export market isnt hurting them as such. It just isn't really helping them at them moment, but I think there is one big fact…..in today's world with global cars and global markets, it no longer makes sense for OEM's like Ford and Holden to produce a whole range of cars just for 1 local market, one that in a global sense is stuff all to the giants in Detroit

For these companies to continue to develop and manufacture cars in Australia they need to be made in larger number, and the only way to do this is to export


In my opinion Holden whilst posting bigger losses now are in a better position to post profits in the future, and it is evident with GM giving Holden more work (such as all of the large rear wheel drive design and development) and trying to import cars from Holden

Where as Ford US don’t seem to be as positive…..

Its also worth noting that whilst Holden's losses are higher they generally speaking are going down or at least holding year by year (even over years when they invested 1 billion dollars on a new model) where as ford's losses doubled over one financial year


Not having an export market is what will hurt Ford in the long run,

Of course that is all just my opinion

[LeadFoot81]

Originally Posted by swapper

.....ahhh i think your mistaken, commodore out sells falcon

Ford sells more locally made models *locally*, Commodore outsells Falcon because of export sales.

[LeadFoot81]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

HUH?? holden have recorded losses for the past 2 years, bigger losses than Ford....
The export market is hurting them.

Exactly. Exports are no longer any good for Holden and Toyota.
GM is considering building Commodores (G8s) in the US, and Chinese Statesmans are looking pretty good too.

Toyota Head Office is also wondering if they should approve another Aurion (why not just sell imported V6 Camrys?)

Fords local sales are actually pretty good, Fomoco is playing it very safe and it looks like this attitude will pay dividends. An Aussie Focus *should* be icing on the cake.

[swapper]

Ford sells more locally made models *locally*, Commodore outsells Falcon because of export sales.

Those figures I put up are cars sold in Australia, not manufactured

Those figures do not include any of the exported cars

More Commodores and Commodore Utes are sold in Australia than Falcon, Territory and Falcon ute.

[EgoFG]

Originally Posted by The_Fantastic_Ford

Ford sells more locally made models *locally*, Commodore outsells Falcon because of export sales.

Swappers numbers are correct. The statement that it is usually this way - I question this, because the only other time (and I only did this one other time, so prolly should not comment) I took the time to compare the Ford was in front on locally produced and sold - but that was perhaps during the Territory bubble.

Ford appears to generally create a greater % of its income from locally made and sold cars than holden. This may lead to greater profitability - when compared to investment.