Outright power vs power delivery - what's more important to you and why?

[RAPID_BA]

Im more for outright power.

[martinijosh]

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

Im more for outright power.

is this topic a thinly veiled windsor T3 vs BOSS 5.4 argument?

I thought that was more your style hulk?

[billy302]

See people don't understand?
Power is a calculation that describes how torque is applied.
The engineering definition, Power is the Rate of doing Work
Quoting power figures without telling you anything else is just rubbish.
Example: Formula 1 engine produces 800HP @ 17,000 Rpm.
Example: Truck engine produces 650HP @ 1900 Rpm.
of the two listed the formula one engine is the most powerful but its the truck engine that has the torque.
Engines don't know anything about power but they understand and know what torque is.
In the example the formula 1 engine has a small amount of torque and it is applied very fast.
The Truck engine by comparison has a large amount of torque and it is applied at a much slower rate.
The Truck engine is the most useful of these engines because of the work it can do.
If we take it a step further and compare it to a ship engine.
Ship Engine 25000 hp @ 90 Rpm. That's why the ship moves.
A very large force applied slowly.
Power to weight determines the rate of acceleration.
A Caterham Seven is a small, lightweight, two-seater sports car renowned for its performance and handling it may have a small 4 cylinder engine but is very fast in acceleration because of its light weight.

[XR_Strider_GuY]

Excellent thread Shav,

Its a case by case basis with regards to power figures and torque. A 600hp car can be very tractable on the street (C6 Corvette ZR1) whereas a built up engine for the drags with similar horsepower with super short gearing may be a complete pain on the road.

I think the topic here for comparison is having an engine that is torquey in the revs where one drives the most (2000-3500rpm) and has a relatively moderate power figure. Comparing this with an engine where maximum torque comes out at a higher rpm but yielding more power at the higher RPM. However comparing the engines itself is not enough, gearing, weight and engine technology plays a role and how the curve of the torque and power behaves.

My Corvette has the good ol 350cu V8 with 187kw@4400rpm but has 475Nm@3200rpm carting around 1476kg. Around town point to point it certainly feels more than the 187kw suggests but that is all down to its low/midrange torque. But you hit a wall where the meaty pull ends. Anything over 4600rpm is a waste and you wear engine with no real go.

Now in comparison the XR8 feels perceptibly less punchy compared but the build up of power with the noise is also good fun. Up top the Corvette would not touch it. I would also bet all acceleration increments even roll on acceleration (good test of instant/midrange torque) the XR8 would be quicker.

So which is better?? I like to think its ones ability to drive each car and knowing what it can and can't do. The characteristic in engine delivery gives each car its own character (of course everyone wants everything) and demands a different driving style and appreciation.

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by billy302

See people don't understand?
Power is a calculation that describes how torque is applied.
The engineering definition, Power is the Rate of doing Work
Quoting power figures without telling you anything else is just rubbish.
Example: Formula 1 engine produces 800HP @ 17,000 Rpm.
Example: Truck engine produces 650HP @ 1900 Rpm.
of the two listed the formula one engine is the most powerful but its the truck engine that has the torque.
Engines don't know anything about power but they understand and know what torque is.
In the example the formula 1 engine has a small amount of torque and it is applied very fast.
The Truck engine by comparison has a large amount of torque and it is applied at a much slower rate.
The Truck engine is the most useful of these engines because of the work it can do.
If we take it a step further and compare it to a ship engine.
Ship Engine 25000 hp @ 90 Rpm. That's why the ship moves.
A very large force applied slowly.
Power to weight determines the rate of acceleration.
A Caterham Seven is a small, lightweight, two-seater sports car renowned for its performance and handling it may have a small 4 cylinder engine but is very fast in acceleration because of its light weight.

I have big cubes ...... have right foot .... make car go fast.

[Road Games]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

I have big cubes ...... have right foot .... make car go fast.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.. No true'r word has spoken

[drew`SEVNT5]

Delivery, coupled with the appropriate weight.

I prefer the 3.7 V6 N/A with 245kw in my new, 1500-odd kg car than the 4.0 I6 Turbo with 230rwkw in my old, 1800-odd kg car.

[ebxr8240]

Originally Posted by drew`SEVNT5

Delivery, coupled with the appropriate weight.

I prefer the 3.7 V6 N/A with 245kw in my new, 1500-odd kg car than the 4.0 I6 Turbo with 230rwkw in my old, 1800-odd kg car.

Whats the torque on both these engines??
I would say the turbo would have near twice as much at much lower rpm...

[jpd80]

Perception.
The soon to be released 2.0 EB Falcon has arguably more power and torque than
the superseded FG E-Gas I-6 yet some posters fear it will hurt Falcon's image..

I think 3.0 SIDI Omega drivers more than anyone are going to get the biggest shock..

[JG34JA]

Power delivery.

Outright numbers don't mean much, but where the torque appears is immensely important and the reason I got hooked on Fords in the first place. The big torque, so low down. Wow...

And each car, how it feels - it could be the AWD grip of our Territory as I give it some herbs hugging the GOR heading toward Cathedral Rock. It could be the immense willingness to rev of my Sprint, with a paltry 192Kw, as it reaches 3000 revs and all hell begins to break loose onward toward the horizon in a maniacal whirlwind. It could be the immortal 302W in the XW, as the 2bbl Autolite sucks down a bit of juice and transforms it into floating, loping ease of eating up the miles with that oh-so-addictive note, the castellations lining up the white lines on the road as she surges forward...

[FTE217]

Mmm Torque down low for street use is nice to have.

[drew`SEVNT5]

Originally Posted by ebxr8240

Whats the torque on both these engines??
I would say the turbo would have near twice as much at much lower rpm...

No doubt. 363nm for the Z, god knows how much for the XR6T.

Difference is, no lag in the Z, nor does it run out of puff above 5k.

Strangely enough, the boosted XR6T felt more peaky :S

[castellan]

Well it depends on what type of car it is, race car, drag car, family car, my fanging car, my work car or bush basher.
But i do like to put the foot down and have instant power on tap and adequate to it's purpose.
So it's delivery.
I have a dirt bike it's a Husaberg 450 and they made a 550 and a 650 and all are exactly the same bike just that the stroke is changed and the only real benefit of the big 650 is it's performance in 5th and 6th gear or it can be more benefit to a lazie type of rider.

[pottery beige]

dear santa.. i would like a big block + top loader....

[ebxr8240]

Originally Posted by drew`SEVNT5

No doubt. 363nm for the Z, god knows how much for the XR6T.

Difference is, no lag in the Z, nor does it run out of puff above 5k.

Strangely enough, the boosted XR6T felt more peaky :S

At what rpm is the 362NM though ??? Higher reving engine...
You say no lag BUT the XR6T will be all over it from then on...
Which is why you say it was more peaky..
Edit ..
245 Kw @ 7000
363 Nm @ 5200

I would say it's a high reving engine..
With sports type close ratio's...
Being sports car V 4 Family saloon..

[pottery beige]

outright or useable....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ad8g9IfWxKI

crank it...

[WMD351]

Delivery, big fat and flat torque.
Something you can use and enjoy anywhere and anytime.

Brings the old saying to mind that you can have torque without power, but you can't have power without torque.

Also, I can't afford to go the power route.

[z80]

Power delivery.

It's all about avoiding the parked car on the left with an ******* on your right.

Above 120km/h? who cares...it's all about how quick you can get there.

[nissan_280zx]

Outright power, because you can always reduce the power output with the throttle, but not the other way.

A 700rwkw car can have small throttle inputs to produce 300rwkw, but a 300rwkw car cannot push the throttle more to magically make 700rwkw.

[CAT600]

Linear delivery.................. its why a 400-500rwkw positive displacement FI engine will always feel nicer than an equivalent turbo engine.

When my TT had the ZF in it and we tuned the midrange out of it it was awesome to drive at 450-500rwkw by making that power at 7000+rpm.... the auto kept the car on the boil between 4000 and 7000 with a long flat torque curve and boost ramping from 13psi through to 20psi at 500rwkw/7000rpm.

Then I overlayed the graph onto the AU's graph and noticed that all I had done was tried to replicate the curve of the Blown car in the second half of the revs.

It worked, but not off idle, and that's a place you need to visit sometime

PD forced induction is where its at for a streetcar IMO.

Daniel

[EgoFG]

IMHO:
If you graph a curve, power against rpm - it is the area under the curve that is most important.

Higher power at low revs is very important to having useable power.

In reality when anyone says they want a powerful car, they actually want a torquey car, but are just saying it incorrectly.

Look at any 4wd, hardly any power over 150kw yet considered powerful - why ? Torque !