Toyota 86 price $29,990!

[Fiesta_Man69]

Originally Posted by Menco

They weren't even testing the finished product and it wouldn't hurt to put a better set of tires on to improve lap times.

It was a production spec example used for the European press launch in the south of France: yeah it was the finished product. And yes they do lament the povo tyres, but that's Subarus decision (probably part of the cost cutting?)

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by LukeyST

Honda's with similar torque, power, weight have been doing it for years, whats the problem?

Here's the problem (which also demonstrates how useless power to weight comparisons are in the real world)...

Honda S2000
135kw/tonne
169nm/tonne

Toyota 86
125kw/tonne
171m/tonne

Given that the S2000 has less torque per tonne, and a mere 10 flywheel kilowatts more, this should have been a close race: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9_hZqvY5RM

But it wasn't. That's why power to weight comparisons don't mean anything to me. I'm also getting a little sick of some people interpreting "gutless motor" as "bad car". Many people see this car as being under-powered, that doesn't make it a bad car as I'm sure it's a lot of fun to drive, but I just can't take it seriously when it's no good anywhere but through corners. Throw a Honda motor in it and I'd be interested.

And Polyal, the fact that people don't agree with you doesn't make them "Ford bogans" that "don't understand", stop being so rude. Comparing how a 1200kg Toyota drives to a 600kg MG is also quite daft.

[Fiesta_Man69]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

"Experienced motoring journalists"...I usually find what they say entertaining, but it is blatantly noticeable sometimes that they have spent too much time behind the wheels of exotica, and don't seem to remember what a "normal car" is supposed to be like.

Basically, if you spent your weeks driving Ferraris, Lambos, high end FPV and HSV cars as well as a sprinkling of Porsches and others, then when you are asked to come down to the real world level and drive a car that has merely adequate instead of outstanding power levels, you will naturally be disappointed...

EVO tests (and long term tests too) everything from Puntos and Fiestas to Paganis. They also get the cars for a real test too (like 2000miles in the BRZ), not just a day or two like Wheels - one of the advantages of being a European publication I suppose. Their testers have decades under their belt, some are currently racing or are ex racers (Tiff Needell) and the bloke who runs the thing owns various exotica and is very experienced in the car trade. I think they have a handle on things: saying of the MX5 (hardly a Ferrari) "short of a Caterham, an MX5 will educate on the dos and donts of car control like nothing else." And that's before you turn over to the Zonda 760RS on page 86.

Seems reasonably balanced to me.

[mcnews]

Euro tests largely mean nothing on Aussie roads. I will take Aussie journo opinions ahead of overseas testers.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by Fiesta_Man69

EVO tests (and long term tests too) everything from Puntos and Fiestas to Paganis. They also get the cars for a real test too (like 2000miles in the BRZ), not just a day or two like Wheels - one of the advantages of being a European publication I suppose. Their testers have decades under their belt, some are currently racing or are ex racers (Tiff Needell) and the bloke who runs the thing owns various exotica and is very experienced in the car trade. I think they have a handle on things: saying of the MX5 (hardly a Ferrari) "short of a Caterham, an MX5 will educate on the dos and donts of car control like nothing else." And that's before you turn over to the Zonda 760RS on page 86.

Seems reasonably balanced to me.

I agree, EVO's reviews are the best you will find anywhere.

[Fiesta_Man69]

Originally Posted by mcnews

Euro tests largely mean nothing on Aussie roads. I will take Aussie journo opinions ahead of overseas testers.

Aus roads are far worse than European roads. This would only make it worse.

Though I spose you could take Wheels' opinion: keep in mind that this is a mag that gave it's last COTY to a hybrid (one that was greeted with at best a luke warm reception by every other motoring mag, both here and overseas) not to mention the COTYs to the Camira and P76.....

[LukeyST]

Originally Posted by Adrenaline

Here's the problem (which also demonstrates how useless power to weight comparisons are in the real world)...

....figures.....

Given that the S2000 has less torque per tonne, and a mere 10 flywheel kilowatts more, this should have been a close race: *vid*.......

Makes you wonder what the difference is doesn't it. At the end of the day 'seats of the pants' feel should be the deciding factor when buying such cars, as the supposed 'figures' don't really mean much. I'd love to have a drive of either of them, both are small, manual and RWD, (edit: and revvy) how could you not have fun?

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by LukeyST

Makes you wonder what the difference is doesn't it. At the end of the day 'seats of the pants' feel should be the deciding factor when buying such cars, as the supposed 'figures' don't really mean much. I'd love to have a drive of either of them, both are small, manual and RWD, (edit: and revvy) how could you not have fun?

I've had quite a bit of experience in an S2000, they are a great drive and it's what I'm basing my 86/BRZ thoughts on - the S2000 has (in my opinion) just the right amount of power to feel like a complete package - great through corners and enough squirt to keep it interesting everywhere else. After seeing the BRZ being comprehensively beaten by the S2000, it leaves me worried it's going to feel sluggish. Obviously Toyota see this as an issue for some people, hence the supercharged version they have in the works which is something I would definitely be keen on.

[nstg8a]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

IMO the 86 is much the same. Fine as a base sports car, but tinker a little and you have the foundation for an absolute weapon...

got it in one imo.

[bingoTE50]

I,d have one in a heart beat. I remember punting a stock RX4 coupe about when I was young , drifting it on dirt , winding it out to 180 kmh at 6500 rpm ,the alarm going off ( redline buzzer) , great fun . These should be a hoot at the right price. I prefer handling over straight line speed anyday . I also would have many of the old and new cars mentioned on this thread, but I do like a coupe.

[69Mach1]

S2000 has been mentioned a few times, thought it worth noting these we some $70k back in the late 90s.......

[calais]

Originally Posted by bingoTE50

I,d have one in a heart beat. I remember punting a stock RX4 coupe about when I was young , drifting it on dirt , winding it out to 180 kmh at 6500 rpm ,the alarm going off ( redline buzzer) , great fun . These should be a hoot at the right price. I prefer handling over straight line speed anyday . I also would have many of the old and new cars mentioned on this thread, but I do like a coupe.

I can say I had the same memories when I was younger driving my Scorpion. Sure I had to wring every last one of its supposed 78kw to make what I still consider decent progress, but hot damn, every time I drove it I loved it. It was a coupe, was something a little different, and even though it wasn't a firecracker in a straight line I would still rank it among the most enjoyable cars I have driven after a wherret koni suspension overhaul, a decent set of 15" rims, twin webers and a new cam..... she still flies today!

Flat out at 185km/h, I remember the euphoria of cracking the ton my old man always reminisced about from back in the day!

Even though I had to mod her a little to make a better, more enjoyable machine, I still rate it.

I look at the 86 the same way. It was never designed to be a road burning muscle car, but it sure packs the perfect base package to modify it into a real drivers car, tuned and modified as the owner wants. If I have read correctly correctly, Toyota have made no secret that they want this car to be easy to play with, a fully unlocked ECU for a start is great step to helping modifiers start the process.

I am struggling to comprehend the closed minded reception the 86 has been recieving, I for one applaud Toyota for giving the buying public an option we have been denied for too long, an affordable two door coupe with reasonable running costs. Well done Toyota.

[Poetic Justice]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

IMO the 86 is much the same. Fine as a base sports car, but tinker a little and you have the foundation for an absolute weapon...

If anyone spent the time to read about the philosophies behind releasing this car they would find that this was a massive part of the goals for it according to Toyoda-san and the other dude, the chief engineer.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by SCUD

If anyone spent the time to read about the philosophies behind releasing this car they would find that this was a massive part of the goals for it according to Toyoda-san and the other dude, the chief engineer.

I wonder then, if that philosophy is extended to warranty on drivetrain if you tinker with it.

[mike_nofx]

Oh and as I didn't mention before, I don't care how many 3 letter acronyms this car has as part of its drive train, the most important one to me is RWD.

IMHO (read it again, MY opinion) I don't care how far FWD has come, or how good a modern one feels to drive, fact is I'm a RWD man.
The way I see it, FWD alone, excluding AWD, was only ever created for one reason, to cut production costs. It is a compromise system, and engineers can tinker with it all they like its still only used to save money.

Think about more expensive "drivers cars" which aren't built to the budgets of mazdas, hyundais, etc. how many are made as FWD?

Anyway, point I'm getting at is, Toyota is now offering to fill that RWD gap with a very low price tag. Sure they could have given more power, torque, interior, handling, features (or whatever most people here are complaining that it hasn't got) then it puts this car into a new category (maybe the $68k nissan 370z?) and they will charge you for it. Which does not seem like their goal... Yet.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by Fiesta_Man69

Touché. But that said I'm not pretending the Fiesta is a sports car.

Id hope not

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by 69Mach1

S2000 has been mentioned a few times, thought it worth noting these we some $70k back in the late 90s.......

Exactly and the EVO is not cheap either

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by mike_nofx

Oh and as I didn't mention before, I don't care how many 3 letter acronyms this car has as part of its drive train, the most important one to me is RWD.

IMHO (read it again, MY opinion) I don't care how far FWD has come, or how good a modern one feels to drive, fact is I'm a RWD man.
The way I see it, FWD alone, excluding AWD, was only ever created for one reason, to cut production costs. It is a compromise system, and engineers can tinker with it all they like its still only used to save money.

Think about more expensive "drivers cars" which aren't built to the budgets of mazdas, hyundais, etc. how many are made as FWD.

I do see your point 100% and I won't create an arguement though I disagree with the cost saving but that's another story for another day.
I use this exact idea in regards to automatic transmissions. As good as one maybe its not a manual.

There was an 86 spotted in Vic with a huge wing on the back aswell it has been seen in Japan too looked very ricey might be a factory option.

[RASER]

Originally Posted by 69Mach1

S2000 has been mentioned a few times, thought it worth noting these we some $70k back in the late 90s.......

In all fairness, the S2000 is a complete different class of vehicle, its more than double the price, revs to 9,000RPM, and is made of lots of aluminium construction, bits and pieces, the S2000 also has about the worlds-best 4 cylinder engine, F20C

The S2000 compared to a Lotue Elise, not a AGENT 86!

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Adrenaline

And Polyal, the fact that people don't agree with you doesn't make them "Ford bogans" that "don't understand", stop being so rude. Comparing how a 1200kg Toyota drives to a 600kg MG is also quite daft.

Its the typical "2L = milk carton" crowd that have a crack...call them bogan whatever it exists around this neck of the woods. Dont think I quoted you as bogan unless there is something I am missing...and where did you pull 600kg or MG from?

You guys might want to call/email Toyota and Subaru and tell them one of the most exciting joint ventures to happen in a while has resulted in a car with a poor engine. I wouldnt hold you breath on a reply though, they will be to busy delivering cars.

So if you think I am being rude then thats ok.

edit: Oz review
http://www.caradvice.com.au/175631/toyota-86-review/

[mcnews]

Stanford working for CA now eh. He is a very good peddler by all accounts, about the fastest of the Aussie scribes.

[calais]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Its the typical "2L = milk carton" crowd that have a crack...call them bogan whatever it exists around this neck of the woods. Dont think I quoted you as bogan unless there is something I am missing...and where did you pull 600kg or MG from?

You guys might want to call/email Toyota and Subaru and tell them one of the most exciting joint ventures to happen in a while has resulted in a car with a poor engine. I wouldnt hold you breath on a reply though, they will be to busy delivering cars.

So if you think I am being rude then thats ok.

edit: Oz review
http://www.caradvice.com.au/175631/toyota-86-review/

^ Seems a like a fair review.

My local dealer will have a car on the 18th... I really can't wait to see it up close.

[MAGPIE]

Originally Posted by Polyal

edit: Oz review
http://www.caradvice.com.au/175631/toyota-86-review/

That's a good review... he must be lying as AFF knows better

[baxr6]

Going to have one of these in the work shop on Monday.

Very excited to check it out.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by mike_nofx

Oh and as I didn't mention before, I don't care how many 3 letter acronyms this car has as part of its drive train, the most important one to me is RWD.

IMHO (read it again, MY opinion) I don't care how far FWD has come, or how good a modern one feels to drive, fact is I'm a RWD man.
The way I see it, FWD alone, excluding AWD, was only ever created for one reason, to cut production costs. It is a compromise system, and engineers can tinker with it all they like its still only used to save money.

Think about more expensive "drivers cars" which aren't built to the budgets of mazdas, hyundais, etc. how many are made as FWD?

Anyway, point I'm getting at is, Toyota is now offering to fill that RWD gap with a very low price tag. Sure they could have given more power, torque, interior, handling, features (or whatever most people here are complaining that it hasn't got) then it puts this car into a new category (maybe the $68k nissan 370z?) and they will charge you for it. Which does not seem like their goal... Yet.

I prefer FWD cars, more leg room, less losses through drivetrain, no diff, so you just do gearbox oil when it needs changing, no tailshaft running to the back of the car and its cheaper to produce. Have you driven any hot hatches?

Understeer is also easier to control then oversteer.

Still wouldn't stop me from taking interest in this car though.

[Fiesta_Man69]

Yes mike, the Focus RS is real rubbish hey? Lol

[madmatty]

so toyota finally made the celica rear wheel drive,big deal.they are just trying to jazz up their boring image.a bog stock fg xr6 would give this thing a run for its money in most cases.The two door sports coupe market is tiny in oz anyway.its not even good looking.as for subaru i think its a step backwards as they advertise their awd symetry.if you want cheap chearful fun or have to have the latest gimmick go grab one,i dont care.i hardly think rwd is pushing the envelope these days.it been done to death.if you want something new check out the first and only factory supercharged v8 made in oz.you might even keep an aussie in a job.

[XRtowcar]

Car dosen't have to have a gazillion horsepower and beat every other car on the road to be fun to drive.
Have had more fun driving lower horsepower cars and wringing there necks trying to get the most out of what liitle power there is and keeping as much speed going through a corner so not too bog it down too much.
Its what makes you smile after a drive.
Applaud ToyBaru for thinking of the driver for a change at a reasonable price.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by madmatty

so toyota finally made the celica rear wheel drive,big deal.they are just trying to jazz up their boring image.a bog stock fg xr6 would give this thing a run for its money in most cases.The two door sports coupe market is tiny in oz anyway.its not even good looking.as for subaru i think its a step backwards as they advertise their awd symetry.if you want cheap chearful fun or have to have the latest gimmick go grab one,i dont care.i hardly think rwd is pushing the envelope these days.it been done to death.if you want something new check out the first and only factory supercharged v8 made in oz.you might even keep an aussie in a job.

If you really want to sound like you are making a point, sentences and paragraphs would be a good start.

[Shonky.]

There's some whacky old numbers getting tossed around in this thread.

Have to respond to this one as so many people have said they liked it:

Originally Posted by IceValk85

i know some BA xr8 auto owners who couldnt crack 15.5 on a 1/4 mile first hand....

so a 2l 4 pot that pulls 15.7 quaters is rubbish? wake up.

the AE86 was never fast in a straight line, nor were the celicas, nor is the mx5 nor is the rx8, but they are all excellent cars in their own right.

Ice

Don't know which nuffy limped this one through the traps at 15.5, but I got a 14.02 out of my '03XR8.

And furthermore that was 10 years ago

Few likes on this one too:

Originally Posted by The Monty

Those saying its slow. It does a 15.7 1/4 with wheel spin on an unprepped track, lol.
Now go back to your whinging about journos who cant get lower then a 14.9 in the F6 on an unprepped track "because it got wheel spin" and "because the journos cant drive". Sour grapes much?

I reckon even a Journo working for Cat Fancier Monthly could better a 14.9 in an F6. The guys who own them get 12 sec 1/4's out of them stock standard, so even allowing for an unprepped track........what was it, unprepped wet grass?

I'll reiterate what I said in an earlier post, there's nothing wrong with the 86. If it comes in at $30k then it sounds like a good buy, but people need to be a little realistic about what it is and isn't.

Like I always say about Hondas, the biggest problem with Hondas is Honda owners. They have this crazy inflated opinion of the capability of the car. That's why we have phrases like "look out, vtec just kicked in"

Don't let this car become like that, just appreciate it for what it is and don't have a chip on your shoulder about it being underpowered. Some of the riduculous twising of specs that I've read in this thread make you seem like a bunch of ricers, instead of people who want a cheap RWD car.

My opinion (only) is that I think it's a bit disappointing that Toyota have once again not delivered what I would like to see, which is a $40k ish answer to all the hot hatches. A rearwheel drive take on it could have been awesome. I don't think we've had anything like it since the S15.

I like Toyotas. My second car is an '11 Corolla. We all know how uninspiring they are, but at a bees d1kc under $20k brand new it is perfect for what I need in a 2nd vehicle. Toyota are such a capable manufacturer I don't know why they don't step up in this country. I would rather see the 86 $10k more and have the grunt to make it the package it could be, but it seems that Toyota Australia's nuts will continue to sit in a jar on a shelf in Japan for at least a bit longer.