Holden Twin Turbo V6

[flappist]

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

Every man and his donkey knows the Fords are massively underrated though, and have been since around when the BA2 F6 Typhoon went back on sale with the stronger clutches.

The BA2 F6 clutch problem was not anything to do with strength. It was a design problem in whuch the natural harmonics of the I6 caused some small components to fatigue and fail prematurely. The new clutch is basically the same as the old one with a few bits moved and remodelled.

My bog standard 290kw BA1 GT-P demonstrated far more power at a competive dyno day back in 2005 than every single HSV tested including 300kw C4Bs and 297Kw LS2s with a reading of 247rwkw.

Of course there is always the "happy dyno" defence but if that were the case and as it was a ls1.com.au dyno day if there were any shonkies going on they would probably be with the HSVs not the evil FPV.

[Alan D Segal]

Originally Posted by flappist

The BA2 F6 clutch problem was not anything to do with strength..

I tought Ford said it was because the journos at Motor flat-shift

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Nikked

Not sure...another turbo would only really be handy for beefing up low end boost, coupled with a larger one for more top end, but packaging would be a nightmare, and in the end, the gains would not be really worth the effort.


Now, a twin-scroll setup would be awesome to see...

I sometimes work in the turbo sub assembly area where the turbo, piping and all the oil and coolant lines get fitted up after the base engine is hot tested, and it's fairly complicated fitting one turbo, let alone two. Now that would be a nightmare.

[jpd80]

You know after thinking about what engines Ford makes available in Falcon, we really don't have much at all to complain about,
I bet if Ford only had an alloy 5.8 V8 as its sole performance engine, certain people would be screaming for an I-6T and a S/C V8....

[Franco Cozzo]

Is the standard turbo on the XR6T and F6 of the VGT variety? Or is it fixed?

With VGT turbos you can get better low RPM performance and still keep it good up high as well.

[LightingBA]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Is the standard turbo on the XR6T and F6 of the VGT variety? Or is it fixed?

With VGT turbos you can get better low RPM performance and still keep it good up high as well.

Just a nice and simple fixed turbo with a built in wastgate. On something like an f6 a twin scroll setup would be just about perfect and no need for the added complexity of VGT.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Is the standard turbo on the XR6T and F6 of the VGT variety? Or is it fixed?

With VGT turbos you can get better low RPM performance and still keep it good up high as well.

It's fixed. The current turbo's make max torque below 2000 rpm anyway so what's the advantage of going VGT. The only petrol engine that I know of the uses VGT is the 911 Turbo, exhaust temps are the issue I think using it in petrol engines. From memory Porsche had a hell of a lot of trouble getting it to work.

[FPV GTHO]

They would probably go a bigger turbo then and run less peak PSI if they had VGT.

[Charliewool]

Originally Posted by FalconXV

Can't see it going in Commodore any time soon.
Even if it did, 11 years after Ford did it with a far better six- Congratulations Holden; you are officially smarter than a carrot.

A good mate of mine that I went to school with (many years ago ha) has worked at GMH for over 30yrs, mostly in engine development. When I bought the BA XR6T in 2002 he was 1 of the 1st that I took for a spin.. Anyhow he was telling me that his dept at GM were working on a TT V6 and had got some pretty impressive numbers out of it. And that the yanks had been over for the testing and were keen as for over there. This was over TEN years ago is my point! He also believed Ford had trumped them with their inline 6 being heaps more turbo friendly, hugely understressed as a relatively stock Falcon6 and so much cheaper to do than their V6 which was expensive and at it's absolute limit without major internal redesign. We'd also be pretty silly to think Holden hasn't done their sums on Turbo technology with the impact Ford had with the XR6T.

[Resurrection]

Originally Posted by Mr G8

This could be Holden's answer to Ford's potent Falcon XR6 Turbo.

General Motors has shown off a twin-turbocharged engine based on the 3.6-litre V6 used in the Holden VF Commodore.

The new motor makes a V8-beating 313kW and 583Nm, 43kW and 53Nm more than the current 6.0-litre V8 in the SS and will be linked to an eight-speed paddle-shift automatic transmission in Cadillac’s new CTS sedan.

Cadillac says the engine “brings a new dimension of technologically advanced performance “ to the brand and develops 90 per cent, or about 520Nm, of its torque from only 2000rpm.

The engine would give Holden an answer to Ford's popular turbocharged XR6, as it is based on the engine used in the Commodore SV6.

But the twin-turbocharged unit has several key departures from the Commodore engine, including new cylinder block and head castings and strengthened internals.

The brand’s director of external communications, Craig Cheetham, poured cold water on the idea of a twin-turbo Commodore in the short term.

“There are no firm plans to introduce it to Holden,” he says.

“Not in the near future... not at all.”

The new VF Commodore SS is expected to retain Holden’s current V8 engine, which puts out 260kW as an auto and 270kW as a manual.

GM’s local arm has previously flirted with turbocharging for the Commodore, in the form of a $3.5 million concept car shown in 2005.

The hot pink Torana TT36 concept car had a similarly twin-turbocharged version of the Commodore V6 which pushed out 280kW and 480Nm of grunt.

The Holden engine plant in Port Melbourne also built turbocharged six-cylinder engines for Saab before the Swedish marque collapsed in 2012.

Source: smh.com.au

image

A turbo version of the HFV6 (Alloytech) engine has been around for 10 years. Holden build and export this engine to Opel. If Holden didn't introduce the turbo V6 to the Commodore when sales where good, why would they do it now?

[ebxr8240]

Plenty of old turbo Buicks made good power in modified tune..
The new lightweight alloy block engines may require re-engineering to take the low rpm torque..

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

It's fixed. The current turbo's make max torque below 2000 rpm anyway so what's the advantage of going VGT. The only petrol engine that I know of the uses VGT is the 911 Turbo, exhaust temps are the issue I think using it in petrol engines. From memory Porsche had a hell of a lot of trouble getting it to work.

Must be only popular on diesel engines then, I thought it would be used more often on petrol engines. Look around on google with the Holset 351VGT turbo, the main problem with aftermarket adaption is getting the VGT side to work, some people have crude mechanical control of it though with good result.

Even if the current fixed turbo makes max torque below 2000 RPM, imagine what they could do with VGT?

Also whats twin scroll?

[FPV GTHO]

What turbos are BMW running on their 3l turbo and such? Last I head it was a twin scroll but maybe they've got something more on another model n

[ebxr8240]

Most modern diesels run variable vane. The Mitsi Triton does..
This issue as said with petrol engines is the exhaust gets too hot and no self lubing
makes the vanes stick..
That's not to say they cant make a water cooled turbine housing like they do in diesel turbo marine engines and oil fed vanes.Or use oil pressure to control them ??

[jpd80]

most applications these days use fairly small turbos so they spool up quickly but that also means the upper power becomes limited.
Not so much a problem with the 4.0 I-6, plenty of gas flow down low to get the turbo spinning quickly and enough reserve at the top end
to see off most contenders..

[FGX-351]

HSV already sold a forced 6 back in the late 90s.
Back then the XU6 was quicker then their V8(EFI 5L), but customers decided with their wallets that they would prefer the V8 regardless of how quick the forced 6 was.

Admittedly markets have changed since 1998/9 but I see it as history most likely repeating itself given the V8 tech they have now.
I couldn't really see customers opting for this in large numbers over the LS3 or whatever engine comes next.

[nstg8a]

Originally Posted by The-ShowStoPPa

HSV already sold a forced 6 back in the late 90s.
Back then the XU6 was quicker then their V8(EFI 5L), but customers decided with their wallets that they would prefer the V8 regardless of how quick the forced 6 was.

Hasn't the gt always outsold the f6?

People buy on emotion more than they admit, hell I did it when I bought my xr8.
Test drove a few xr6t's, and in all honesty there was no logical reason to choose the 8 over the 6t, except for the fact I wanted an 8.

[mik]

there`s something nice about having a big lump of v8 engine between the shock towers, even my old xc ute with the clevo in front, it handled pretty average at speed(standard 1976 ute suspension), but cruising around and feeling the torque and all that mass being shoved around , it had a solid feel about it, a feel you cannot get in a light buzz box.

[FGX-351]

Originally Posted by nstg8a

Hasn't the gt always outsold the f6?

People buy on emotion more than they admit, hell I did it when I bought my xr8.
Test drove a few xr6t's, and in all honesty there was no logical reason to choose the 8 over the 6t, except for the fact I wanted an 8.

Yeah I see what your saying there.
Without having the statistics in front of me I do recall reading that HSV sold V8s over Super6s at a much greater ratio than GT to F6.

Ford customers have always seemed to embrace the hot 6 much more than Holden customers.

In my opinion HSV being the more established company have a greater V8 culture, I liken people going to HSV to buy anything but the V8 like going to a butcher and trying to buy a salad. :P

Apologies for going off topic.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by FalconXV

Can't see it going in Commodore any time soon.
Even if it did, 11 years after Ford did it with a far better six- Congratulations Holden; you are officially smarter than a carrot.

VL turbo was how many years before ford?

[mik]

Originally Posted by The-ShowStoPPa

Yeah I see what your saying there.
Without having the statistics in front of me I do recall reading that HSV sold V8s over Super6s at a much greater ratio than GT to F6.

Ford customers have always seemed to embrace the hot 6 much more than Holden customers.

In my opinion HSV being the more established company have a greater V8 culture, I liken people going to HSV to buy anything but the V8 like going to a butcher and trying to buy a salad. :P

Apologies for going off topic.

probably a big part of that was when ford people where put on a diet of 6 cylinder only for sale.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by burnz

VL turbo was how many years before ford?

You mean the Nissan designed and built engine?

[burnz]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

You mean the Nissan designed and built engine?

Nissan engine yes, developed with a turbo and software by holden.
Nissan don't make an RB30 turbo.

[FPV GTHO]

Why would Holden have developed their own turbo kit for the motor given the turbo heritage for the rest of the RB motors.

[burnz]

because the RB20/30 was the only two engine's offered by Nissan to holden .
would have been different if they offered the RB26.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by burnz

Nissan engine yes, developed with a turbo and software by holden.
Nissan don't make an RB30 turbo.

Nissan designed and built the engine for Holden, after Holden asked for it

And yes, Nissan never offered the engine in anything else.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Nissan designed and built the engine for Holden, after Holden asked for it

And yes, Nissan never offered the engine in anything else.

your kidding

[Bossxr8]

Nope, Nissan did all the r&d on the engine, Holden would have done the calibration of the ECU.

Do you need me to scan a few articles from Wheels from the era? They are around somewhere.