Towing a Caravan - Mechanical strain etc

[Chapter Four]

Originally Posted by lra

In that particular video, and the RHD rollovers (Aus?) .... how many were FWD tow vehicles, which had more weight aboard the trailer/van than the weight of the tow vehicle.

I count 3 RHD vehicles in that video;
the AU Falcon - afamily RWD sedan
A Ssangyong looking thing towing a van, so a AWD/4WD SUV
and what appears to be a Landrover Freelander, a FWD/AWD SUV

My question is how many were towed by large US style SUVs where the norm is 10-15% ball weights?

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by prydey

I'm not an advocate for an extra licence but what I think would help is if authorities started policing the activity a lot more, especially weighing. This might get people to do their due diligence and make sure they are within all the ratings.

Currently very little policing happens.

I've been towing caravan for over 40 years more so in the last 15 years and what I see on the roads scares the **** out of me at times with some people who got no idea of any sense when it comes to towing, I firmly believe there should be compulsory tow course with an endorsement to your licence.
After reading some comments in this topic has convinced me more than ever an endorsement to your licence is warranted.
Just my opinion.....cheers.

[Chapter Four]

Originally Posted by Pis-ton broke

coming down the hill onto moony moony bridge was my first thought.

Yep, that's what it looked like to me.
Done that trip many times with my car and trailer.

[Franco Cozzo]

I vote for no restrictions of any kind and let natural selection sort everything out

[.:4:.]

I wouldnt feel comfortable towing a car on a trailer at freeway speeds. Even towing my boat that is strapped down to the trailer so doesnt move as in doesnt have suspension to bounce around on top of the trailer i still take it easy and dont give a crap how many people want to overtake me. A lot of the people getting unstuck in these videos are mashing it to overtake and not paying attention to the trailer behind them and frankly not driving responsibly. Ive only had my boat sway on me a couple times but i saw it start to dance before it started to tell the car what to do, i dunno the proper technique, but i just bang the car into neutral and coasted out of it. My logic being with an unstable trailer, braking the car even though the trailer has brakes, the trailer tyres arent going to have even traction and it will still want to overtake the car. Accelerating out of it, my logic is that that can potentially amplify the frequency of the trailer dancing and then tell the rear end of the car what to do. So my logic of coasting in neutral, granted the trailer wasnt that bad the few times i caught it, was let the car and trailer slow at an even rate. Towing in general i dont give a crap about the car behind me. They can just deal with it and overtake if they want to. Same with taking off from the lights. No need to put greater strain on the car.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by hayseed

The euro's recommend a lower Towing speed limit for a reason..!

Yes, because most of their vans are set up with around 5% ball weight and being towed by cars like the OP has.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by prydey

I don't agree. A ranger is actually a very good tow vehicle. In fact it's technically better than a land cruiser if you're towing 3t or less. The reason is it has the longest wheelbase and the shortest distance from rear axle to hitch. These are two very important attributes.

Modern dual cabs and wagons actually tow quite well if they are set up properly and within the manufacturers ratings and driven at appropriate speeds. Many just never read their owners manual to find out that info.

Crash statistics also point out that crashes involving vehicles towing are a very small percentage of overall crashes on the roads. Most accidents are caused by the device between the steering wheel and the seat.

Trailer sway control as a part of the stability control system as well.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Pis-ton broke

coming down the hill onto moony moony bridge was my first thought.

Nup, definitively Berowra on ramp heading north, he ends up sprawled all over. There are no further on ramps heading down until you cross the Hawkesbury river bridge.

https://www.google.com/maps/@-33.604...7i16384!8i8192

The Sansyong looks like further up the freeway at Morriset.

EDIT cancel that.... After looking at the video more it's heading south coming down the hill into Wahroonga, with him ending up in the merge lane from Ku ringai,NP Bobbin Head. Cutting do not look deep enough to be around the Hawkesbury.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Officemanager

I've been towing caravan for over 40 years more so in the last 15 years and what I see on the roads scares the **** out of me at times with some people who got no idea of any sense when it comes to towing, I firmly believe there should be compulsory tow course with an endorsement to your licence.
After reading some comments in this topic has convinced me more than ever an endorsement to your licence is warranted.
Just my opinion.....cheers.

So did you do a training course?

I see scary stuff from people not towing.

[Chapter Four]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Nup, definitively Berowra on ramp heading north, he ends up sprawled all over. There are no further on ramps heading down until you cross the Hawkesbury river bridge.

https://www.google.com/maps/@-33.604...7i16384!8i8192

The Sansyong looks like further up the freeway at Morriset.

EDIT cancel that.... After looking at the video more it's heading south coming down the hill into Wahroonga, with him ending up in the merge lane from Ku ringai,NP Bobbin Head. Cutting do not look deep enough to be around the Hawkesbury.

i do believe you are correct

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by prydey

So did you do a training course?

I see scary stuff from people not towing.

We could learn a few things from these Brazilian truckers.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by prydey

So did you do a training course?

I see scary stuff from people not towing.

No but wish I did in the early years; my father in law who was an avid caravaner did a couple courses in the day and passed on a lot of knowledge to me which I was grateful for otherwise I reckon I could have been another statistic on our roads.
Also been lucky to work in the transport industry in later years which I have gained a lot of useful knowledge in courses.

[mick taylor]

Originally Posted by prydey

statistically, the percentage of caravans that come unstuck compared to the number of vans on the road, is very small.

you have to get a licence to drive a car/truck/motorbike etc yet people crash them every day. a licence is not a solution. its just more red tape and expense.

Perhaps what people really want is some form of mandatory training. I believe these facilities already exist but are voluntary.

I still don't see the need. These opinions are often put forward by generations who had very little in the way of training for any licence aquired back in those days. Rather ironic really.

Over the years I have seen many towing with the nose of what they are driving way up in the air and the tail way down, mainly more so back before the 1990's.
I worked at a servo in the late 70's and they had no idea, pump up shocks were what was pushed mainly, but I would say up grad your springs, well that did not go down well, but pump ups did with most.
On the road I would see cars with the nose up the front with tyres positive camber come waving towards you like a boat.

I bought a HQ Kingswood 202 3sp manual the owner used it to tow and the owner before him came up to me and said he towed a van with it as well, it had GT130 shocks all round and std springs.

The next car I got was the same used for towing a van, a HG 253 Premier lowered in the front and ute springs rear and on front a K Mac sway bar, spot on for towing.

Dad had a 1971 Galaxie towed a fully loaded 4 wheeled trailer he would like to sit on 90mph a lot and did not feel the trailer behind you, it had pump ups and Koni on the front stock springs tho. he had a trailer of sand say 1 ton and she the came off the tow ball coming around a bend, the chains were to long and he lost it and snapped a power pole. next he put mums HJ 202 Kingswood on it's roof into a ditch because that trailer came off again and never shortened the chains.
If you keep the chains short they will not toss you around so much if it comes off the ball, I believe.

I do not believe that towing will shorten the life of a engine or the drive line really, for autos I always use a extra cooler regardless. people who do not service their cars correctly or abuse them are much worse by far.

[Tassie f100]

Sounds like he didn’t have any idea about how to load and tow a trailer.With proper couplings and enough ball weight a trailer will never come off the tow ball.

[prydey]

If you have a trailer coming off the ball then there is coupling issues in play.

Chains should be a length where articulation isn't affected but short enough to keep the trailer off the road in the event of a hitch failure.

[XR Martin]

Cross the chains too

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by .:4:.

I wouldnt feel comfortable towing a car on a trailer at freeway speeds. Even towing my boat that is strapped down to the trailer so doesnt move as in doesnt have suspension to bounce around on top of the trailer i still take it easy and dont give a crap how many people want to overtake me. A lot of the people getting unstuck in these videos are mashing it to overtake and not paying attention to the trailer behind them and frankly not driving responsibly. Ive only had my boat sway on me a couple times but i saw it start to dance before it started to tell the car what to do, i dunno the proper technique, but i just bang the car into neutral and coasted out of it. My logic being with an unstable trailer, braking the car even though the trailer has brakes, the trailer tyres arent going to have even traction and it will still want to overtake the car. Accelerating out of it, my logic is that that can potentially amplify the frequency of the trailer dancing and then tell the rear end of the car what to do. So my logic of coasting in neutral, granted the trailer wasnt that bad the few times i caught it, was let the car and trailer slow at an even rate. Towing in general i dont give a crap about the car behind me. They can just deal with it and overtake if they want to. Same with taking off from the lights. No need to put greater strain on the car.

The best thing to do is apply the trailer brakes on their own using the slider on the brake controller to create tension between the car and trailer.

[.:4:.]

Originally Posted by chevypower

The best thing to do is apply the trailer brakes on their own using the slider on the brake controller to create tension between the car and trailer.

The brakes on my boat trailer are basic inertia brakes. Trailer pushes against the car, brakes engage. So i dont have an option to brake the trailer independently of the car. But coasting and letting things even out has worked for me. The biggest factor is, in my opinion, is having eyes in the back of your head and paying attention what you are towing and how it is behaving.

[mick taylor]

Originally Posted by Tassie f100

Sounds like he didn’t have any idea about how to load and tow a trailer.With proper couplings and enough ball weight a trailer will never come off the tow ball.

I do not know how it did come off the ball, but it did, 1960's made trailer with 4 wheels had HK disc brakes on the front that worked the old way.
I never bothered having a real good look at it as I have always hated trailers and bought utes instead as finding a parking spot is a real drag. so I have never bothered to be right up on trailers.
But my dad was a interstate truck driver for some years but he would never listen to me. so why would I bother, I just thought the chains were a bit to long and the trailer was just old crap to me.
I towed a fair bit with his LTD that trailer and a car trailer and a 24ft boat.

I have heard of them coming off but as to why I do not know how they do.
You see them block type setups nowadays a lot that hook up to the car.

He wrote that HJ off back in 1987.

[Cav]

Originally Posted by mick taylor

Over the years I have seen many towing with the nose of what they are driving way up in the air and the tail way down, mainly more so back before the 1990's.
I worked at a servo in the late 70's and they had no idea, pump up shocks were what was pushed mainly, but I would say up grad your springs, well that did not go down well, but pump ups did with most.
On the road I would see cars with the nose up the front with tyres positive camber come waving towards you like a boat.

I bought a HQ Kingswood 202 3sp manual the owner used it to tow and the owner before him came up to me and said he towed a van with it as well, it had GT130 shocks all round and std springs.

The next car I got was the same used for towing a van, a HG 253 Premier lowered in the front and ute springs rear and on front a K Mac sway bar, spot on for towing.

Dad had a 1971 Galaxie towed a fully loaded 4 wheeled trailer he would like to sit on 90mph a lot and did not feel the trailer behind you, it had pump ups and Koni on the front stock springs tho. he had a trailer of sand say 1 ton and she the came off the tow ball coming around a bend, the chains were to long and he lost it and snapped a power pole. next he put mums HJ 202 Kingswood on it's roof into a ditch because that trailer came off again and never shortened the chains.
If you keep the chains short they will not toss you around so much if it comes off the ball, I believe.

I do not believe that towing will shorten the life of a engine or the drive line really, for autos I always use a extra cooler regardless. people who do not service their cars correctly or abuse them are much worse by far.

Load levellers work best by transferring weight from the rear axle to the front axle.

Pump up shocks do not reduce load.

Chains, no matter how tight, are a myth to catch the front of the trailer should it come away from the tow ball.

No matter what length you have on the chains (too little and you can't turn) when the caravan uncouples it moves forward and drops on the ground, chains won't keep it off the tarmac - check to see if your caravan had a skid bar or are there sharp edges that may dig into the tar.

I am also unsure if the breakaway cable is any help once the caravan has a life of its own. Fully braked caravan brakes are of no effect with the wheels off the ground, the caravan on its side or on its roof with debris scattered everywhere acrtoss the road.

When first coupling the caravan, wind the front stand to see if the coupling raises the rear of the car. This ensures it is coupled nice and firm. This is also the time to attach the load levellers.

[Vesper Martini]

yes unless you have a very high towball chains wont stop the drawbar hitting the ground if uncoupled.
chains are to keep the trailer with the car in the even it becomes unhitched stop it slamming into the rear taking off into an on coming lane etc.

crossing them is a good idea but it wont hold it off the ground once it slides forward under the car.

[Crazy Dazz]

Chains should hold it off the ground.
Depends on length, where there are attached, and the height.
The problem is usually with overriders, with the chains attached quite far back, and consequently too long. Put that on a low sedan, sagging at the rear, and yes, once the chains go vertical, the tow hitch will be hitting the ground.

air-shocks are good cheap & easy fix, especially since you can deflate them when not needed. They don't reduce the load much, but do help keep it level, and help your car handle the load.
(Compared to an extreme sag, by levelling the load they do put a bit more onto the front and onto the trailer axle(s))

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Chains should hold it off the ground.
Depends on length, where there are attached, and the height.
The problem is usually with overriders, with the chains attached quite far back, and consequently too long. Put that on a low sedan, sagging at the rear, and yes, once the chains go vertical, the tow hitch will be hitting the ground.

air-shocks are good cheap & easy fix, especially since you can deflate them when not needed. They don't reduce the load much, but do help keep it level, and help your car handle the load.
(Compared to an extreme sag, by levelling the load they do put a bit more onto the front and onto the trailer axle(s))

Pump up shocks, much like airbags, don't distribute any load to the front axle or the van axle.

Reducing sag, even by fitting stiffer suspension doesn't do anything to mitigate the load on the rear axle of the tow vehicle.

[mick taylor]

Originally Posted by Cav

Load levellers work best by transferring weight from the rear axle to the front axle.

Pump up shocks do not reduce load.

Chains, no matter how tight, are a myth to catch the front of the trailer should it come away from the tow ball.

No matter what length you have on the chains (too little and you can't turn) when the caravan uncouples it moves forward and drops on the ground, chains won't keep it off the tarmac - check to see if your caravan had a skid bar or are there sharp edges that may dig into the tar.

I am also unsure if the breakaway cable is any help once the caravan has a life of its own. Fully braked caravan brakes are of no effect with the wheels off the ground, the caravan on its side or on its roof with debris scattered everywhere acrtoss the road.

When first coupling the caravan, wind the front stand to see if the coupling raises the rear of the car. This ensures it is coupled nice and firm. This is also the time to attach the load levellers.

I do not believe the chain is their due to stopping it digging into the road at all, dads was dual axel as well, all the chain would do is to hold on to the trailer so it does not come adrift. and as such it would tug the rear of the car side to side when coming into a bend on the highway.
The dual axel trailer of van in that case I believe would steer and then get tugged over correcting to far and what happens is the rear of the car is getting tossed all about I would think and the shorter chain would reduce the savageness I am sure. a empty trailer no problem at all with such but 1 tonne of sand on board would make a difference I would think.

I was at home and the power went out and I said some one has hit a power pole and knocked to power out to our town, then got a call and drove 20 miles away and their was the car on the bend of the highway, power pole snapped in two and trailer sitting empty on it's wheels down away from the car.
She had hit the pole with the driver side front wheel sideways and into it moving into it. so he must of got tossed about by it.

I believe never to tow anything that is more than the weight of the car regardless of the Law. a Idiot mate was claiming his Colorado could tow some stupid amount by the cars manual, I said he was p ing into the wind not to mention by QLD Law you can't regardless of the claim. Oh he claims the Colorado's are so much better than the Ford ect ect I said BS I have driven both of his. I would rather tow with a car that is low to the ground as well than up high like a 4WD.

My dad had towed trailers around for years nearly half the time he was towing, even had a Caravan as well, I would say that he had much experience and anyone could doing say 50.000km a year from 1964 so say about 20.000km with towing a year easy.

In 1978 I would reverse one 2 wheel trailer that he had and it was the best thing ever I could reverse real fast with ease, it had just one tube draw bar to the hitch not a A frame and car like leaf springs on it, sort of a bit higher than the norm had a huge round 3in axle bar bent a bit with a steel plate welded on top say 8in.
Now I would have to reverse down narrow work sights with trailer loaded up and the ground was all over the place up and down and I found some trailers were a real bastard to reverse like that as I believe the wheels toe in and out with the pressure put on one side and then the next, I could see it with them crappy little leaf springs and the rubbish flimsy axel beam you see them have. what is it 1 1/2in box steel.
Some tow real well that you do not bother you at all and some are crap to tow and a constant pain always.

[mick taylor]

Originally Posted by prydey

Pump up shocks, much like airbags, don't distribute any load to the front axle or the van axle.

Reducing sag, even by fitting stiffer suspension doesn't do anything to mitigate the load on the rear axle of the tow vehicle.

If the front of the car is in the air and the rear is down to low it's crap regardless. the trailer has to be flat to down a bit in the front, never up in the air at the front of the trailer.
The weight on the axel means f all within reason.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by prydey

Pump up shocks, much like airbags, don't distribute any load to the front axle or the van axle.

Reducing sag, even by fitting stiffer suspension doesn't do anything to mitigate the load on the rear axle of the tow vehicle.

As I said, compared to an extreme sag, they move a bit of the load.
Mostly they just level and stabilize things, and make the car behave more predictably.

And as I said, they're a cheap, easy, effective, and adjustable solution.

[prydey]

Having a level vehicle isn't that critical as long as you are within the rated limits of the axles.

If you have that much weight on the rear that your steering is affected, then you are more than likely overweight somewhere.

[Cav]

Originally Posted by mick taylor

I do not believe the chain is their due to stopping it digging into the road at all, dads was dual axel as well, all the chain would do is to hold on to the trailer so it does not come adrift. and as such it would tug the rear of the car side to side when coming into a bend on the highway.
The dual axel trailer of van in that case I believe would steer and then get tugged over correcting to far and what happens is the rear of the car is getting tossed all about I would think and the shorter chain would reduce the savageness I am sure. a empty trailer no problem at all with such but 1 tonne of sand on board would make a difference I would think.

I was at home and the power went out and I said some one has hit a power pole and knocked to power out to our town, then got a call and drove 20 miles away and their was the car on the bend of the highway, power pole snapped in two and trailer sitting empty on it's wheels down away from the car.
She had hit the pole with the driver side front wheel sideways and into it moving into it. so he must of got tossed about by it.

I believe never to tow anything that is more than the weight of the car regardless of the Law. a Idiot mate was claiming his Colorado could tow some stupid amount by the cars manual, I said he was p ing into the wind not to mention by QLD Law you can't regardless of the claim. Oh he claims the Colorado's are so much better than the Ford ect ect I said BS I have driven both of his. I would rather tow with a car that is low to the ground as well than up high like a 4WD.

My dad had towed trailers around for years nearly half the time he was towing, even had a Caravan as well, I would say that he had much experience and anyone could doing say 50.000km a year from 1964 so say about 20.000km with towing a year easy.

In 1978 I would reverse one 2 wheel trailer that he had and it was the best thing ever I could reverse real fast with ease, it had just one tube draw bar to the hitch not a A frame and car like leaf springs on it, sort of a bit higher than the norm had a huge round 3in axle bar bent a bit with a steel plate welded on top say 8in.
Now I would have to reverse down narrow work sights with trailer loaded up and the ground was all over the place up and down and I found some trailers were a real bastard to reverse like that as I believe the wheels toe in and out with the pressure put on one side and then the next, I could see it with them crappy little leaf springs and the rubbish flimsy axel beam you see them have. what is it 1 1/2in box steel.
Some tow real well that you do not bother you at all and some are crap to tow and a constant pain always.

That's why they have a breakaway cable now where the system must be capable of locking the caravan brakes for 15 minutes (ie the charge required in the breakaway battery system)

This is for caravans over 2 tonnes.

BTW, it is easier to reverse a long trailer than a short one.

[.:4:.]

Originally Posted by Cav

BTW, it is easier to reverse a long trailer than a short one.

Long trailers dont change direction as quickly as short trailers when backing up. So much easier in reverse. Its a common misconception that short trailers are easier to reverse. The shorter they are the more difficult they become.

[mick taylor]

Originally Posted by Cav

That's why they have a breakaway cable now where the system must be capable of locking the caravan brakes for 15 minutes (ie the charge required in the breakaway battery system)

This is for caravans over 2 tonnes.

BTW, it is easier to reverse a long trailer than a short one.

With a trailer with one axle I would think a bit of positive camber and a bit of toe in would be better than nothing and the axle more to the rear than forward if anything.

If you look at Horse and buggy, see they have positive camber, makes it easy to control behind I would think.

I am wondering what the trotters have at the track, now.