Holden ECOTEC - tell me about it

[xkxlxm]

I saw somewhere on the forum that a mechanic told someone to keep his Ecotec. I know that Holden started to use a V6 from the VN and the Ecotec must be a version of the V6 (?). What is so good about it and what years was it used by Holden? Thanks in advance.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by xkxlxm

I saw somewhere on the forum that a mechanic told someone to keep his Ecotec. I know that Holden started to use a V6 from the VN and the Ecotec must be a version of the V6 (?). What is so good about it and what years was it used by Holden? Thanks in advance.

And Buick.

[Bossxr8]

VN to VY. And it's a boat anchor, that was especially rough as guts in the early years. Seem to be pretty reliable though, unlike the later HFV6 that replaced it.

[Vesper Martini]

But they make this noise like: Mang Mang Mang

[Franco Cozzo]

Super reliable, all cast iron construction - hands down second best 6 cylinder engine used in a Holden (RB30ET no 1)

The only thing that goes wrong with them is alternator (15 min job), intake manifold gaskets, CKP, DFI, AC compressor and ignition coils.

CKP is a bit of a bastard, its inside the balancer and you need a removal tool to remove the balancer but otherwise everything else is all gucci.

Here's a photo of how the AC compressors leak and crap out - you can see how easy the ignition coils and DFI are to get to replace in the first photo as well, right there on the top of the engine at the front.





HFV6 ('Alloytec' from VZ onwards) makes better numbers on paper but its torqueless ****box with design problems in comparison to the mighty Mang machine.

They should have used the SAAB 2.8L turbo version of the HFV6 that they were making in the Port Melbourne engine plant, instead of the 3.6L naturally aspirated job for the Commodore.

I love me a good Ecotec, got some love for the L67 supercharged version too, its got potential, just very underdone from factory

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

VN to VY. And it's a boat anchor, that was especially rough as guts in the early years. Seem to be pretty reliable though, unlike the later HFV6 that replaced it.

The ECOTec V6 was the updated version of the Buick style V6 & was fitted to Commodores from VS to VY.

It is very different to the earlier unit with smaller (lighter) castings & was much smoother & more economical than the V6s before it. It was still all cast iron & super reliable.

The early VN V6 (LN3) was torquey but rough & noisy, the 91 onwards L27 version was smoother & quieter than LN3 but not as good as the ECOTec.

I've run many of these in my fleet & Franco is on the money with his fault list.

They are as tough as nails & will go almost forever (I've had several in my fleet do over 700,000 km) & their head gaskets just don't die.

Dr Terry

[DFB FGXR6]

The name Ecotec only came later on with the VS, previous to that is was largely un-named.

Getting back to basics, this engine appeared in the VN Commodore as a replacement for the terrific Nissan-sourced 3.0 inline 6, which was far more advanced in that it had a OHC with an alloy head. The 3.8 V6 was an all-iron pushrod OHV 90-degree V6 adapted from Buick.

The earliest versions of this Buick V6 were crude and poorly refined, and that's putting it politely. Power output was 127 kW @ 4800 and 292 Nm @ 3200. While these figures sat in the middle of the two 3.9 Falcon engines, Holden's trick was to fit a low first and second gear ratios to make the thing slingshot forward with much more vigor compared to the moonshot geared Falcon's.

The 3.8 got a small power update and refinement improvements (it was still harsh as all hell) for the VR with 130 kW and 295 Nm at the same rpms.

The VS Commodore introduced the Ecotec version of the V6. This featured a lot of mechanical changes to improve refinement, power and fuel economy. This is where this engine really should have started, as the Ecotec was vastly better than the previous incarnations. Power was up to 147 kW @ 5200 and 304 Nm @ 3600. Again, short gearing and light weight made these engines more toey than the figures suggest. The VS also introduced the pointless supercharged version with 165 kW @ 5200 and 370 Nm @ 3000, available on selected grades. Both versions of the Ecotec were still far away from the best Japanese V6's, and probably on par with the wheezy Falcon 6. All Ecotec's from start to finish on VY II had a 5900 rpm limit.

The base Ecotec carried over into the VT Commodore, which had gained weight and softened the performance. The supercharged version rose to 171 kW @ 5200 and 375 Nm @ 3000, while HSV offered the very unpopular 180 kW @ 5000 and 380 Nm @ 3000 version on the XU6. For the VX Commodore, the base engine rose to 152 kW @ 5200 and 305 Nm @ 3000.

With the arrival of the VY, the Ecotec got another round of refinement improvements, including a vibration damper. It was still a hoary old thing though. Power and torque figures remained across the board from the VX though. These powertrains continued on until the VZ arrived with the equally horrible GM HFV6 or Alloytec.

The Alloytec was heavily hyped and was expected to smash the competition with class leading technology, power and refinement targets. It was said at the time that GM had benchmarked Honda, Toyota and Nissan V6's for refinement, output and cost of manufacturing. I'm not sure what happened, but GM must have had dud benchmark engines when they were engineering the HFV6. For what supposed to be a landmark engine, ended up being one of the worst engines ever designed.

I had to laugh reading the early reviews of the VZ's with Alloytec engines, especially compared to the Ford, Mitsubishi and Toyota competition. Even the oldest engine among those, the Barra 182, smashed it for refinement and torque. (I refer to the Barra being old because, let's face it, it was a new head on an old block.) Then you had the terrific Magna V6 and revvy Toyota 3.0 V6 which only made this all-new GM engine look silly.

Circling back to the Buick V6, while they were terribly refined, the fuel economy, performance and reliability certainly won many over. But let's face it, the only reason Holden used that engine was because it was dirt cheap, both in engineering and manufacturing terms. They sounded and felt rough, way beyond the "sporty" brand image they were going for.

I once offended an American forum member with my views on the Buick V6, but it's all true, the engine was simply another example of a cost-conscious American manufacturer.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

I once offended an American forum member with my views on the Buick V6, but it's all true, the engine was simply another example of a cost-conscious American manufacturer.

Thats a good summary of it really, it was never going to win any awards for refinement or outright figures

Mind you as much as it sucked in the Buick form prior to becoming the 'Ecotec' in the VS, they had a variant of it that had sequential fuel injection and was turboed in the mid 1980s that was used in the Buick Grand National GNX

276hp/360lbft, mid 13 second quarter mile and sub 5 second 0-100 times in 1987 from an American manufacturer when they were churning out turds like the 302W and the GM 305/350 boat anchors.







https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...l-gnx-history/

The fact they did this in the 1980s, then the L67 comes along with its hair dryer Eaton M90 supercharger makes me scratch my head, but I suspect the L67 was designed for transverse fitments in FWD cars and Holden decided to use it in a RWD application.

While it has its foibles, I'm not sure I'd write off the Buick V6 or the Ecotec as crap, maybe just that Ford Australia consistently knocked it out the park with limited resources on ye olde I6 from the SOHC to Barra era.

Look at the Tickford variants of the EF/EL/AU SOHC compared to the 302W.

I look at the Buick V6/Ecotec as the 6 cylinder equivalent of the GM 350, make an engine thats cheap to produce than smash it in absolutely everything where it will fit

[DFB FGXR6]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Thats a good summary of it really, it was never going to win any awards for refinement or outright figures

Mind you as much as it sucked in the Buick form prior to becoming the 'Ecotec' in the VS, they had a variant of it that had sequential fuel injection and was turboed in the mid 1980s that was used in the Buick Grand National GNX

276hp/360lbft, mid 13 second quarter mile and sub 5 second 0-100 times in 1987 from an American manufacturer when they were churning out turds like the 302W and the GM 305/350 boat anchors.

image

image

image

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...l-gnx-history/

The fact they did this in the 1980s, then the L67 comes along with its hair dryer Eaton M90 supercharger makes me scratch my head, but I suspect the L67 was designed for transverse fitments in FWD cars and Holden decided to use it in a RWD application.

While it has its foibles, I'm not sure I'd write off the Buick V6 or the Ecotec as crap, maybe just that Ford Australia consistently knocked it out the park with limited resources on ye olde I6 from the SOHC to Barra era.

Look at the Tickford variants of the EF/EL/AU SOHC compared to the 302W.

And yet it still sounded terrible..............

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

And yet it still sounded terrible..............

So does every 4 and 6 cylinder car though so its a bit moot really

[Swordie]

I purchased my VY Ecotec Wagon new in 2003 and still have it. It is a great engine. Nice torque and great economy on the highway for a V6. They have reputation for reliability and longevity provided they are looked after. I have sports suspension (FE2) fitted to my car from the factory. It handles well for a big car.

[xkxlxm]

Thanks. It's informative for me.

[Franco Cozzo]

These guys did stock Ecotec + turbo



My lord it sounds horrible

At the end they compare it with a NA Barra that they also turboed, Barra made 10hp less but at half the amount of boost that the Ecotec has.

Poor ol' mang doesn't flow air too well through its heads

Its still nearly 300KW on 15 PSI though.

[DFB FGXR6]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

These guys did stock Ecotec + turbo



My lord it sounds horrible

At the end they compare it with a NA Barra that they also turboed, Barra made 10hp less but at half the amount of boost that the Ecotec has.

Poor ol' mang doesn't flow air too well through its heads

Its still nearly 300KW on 15 PSI though.

Just think, the money poured into that engine could have been put towards something a little nicer than a Ecotec VS Commodore.

[Junkyard-Dog]

It probably cost them sfa to turbo the Ecotec. Sure, it sounds hideous but 300kw at the wheels is more than twice the power that engine made standard.

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by xkxlxm

Thanks. It's informative for me.

vt wagon is a true gentlemans saloon

anything this age that hasnt been half looked after is rooted whatever it is

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

vt wagon is a true gentlemans saloon

anything this age that hasnt been half looked after is rooted whatever it is

Bonus points for dual fuel mixer ring

[Syndrome]

The Alloytec was a dud. I remember when the VZ Commodore was released in 2006 the media's response was very muted. A brand new engine and brand new assembly plant with nothing carried over from the VY Ecotec engine. Yet the new engine was not significantly any better than the old engine. And the 'old' Barra gave it a good run for it's money. Which is why I was livid when Ford planned to ditch the local I6 for an imported gutless V6 from 2010. Thankfully that decision was reversed.

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Bonus points for dual fuel mixer ring

im not pov m8 that mixer ring has been chucked in the bin

rolled CAS a couple weeks back around 325k (bit of a crank on start) all fixed and beautiful again

[fiestaz]

I really liked the VT commodore with the V6 Ecotec. It was damn reliable with plenty of grunt and surprisingly good on fuel (especially on the highway).

Parents had a supercharged VY which was still their favourite commodore outside of v8's. (VP, VT, VY, VZ, VE V8, VF V8)

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

im not pov m8 that mixer ring has been chucked in the bin

rolled CAS a couple weeks back around 325k (bit of a crank on start) all fixed and beautiful again

See I'm not wrong, hardly anything goes tits up on those things

Thats why any time someone speaks to a mechanic about the Ecotec Commodore they're like KEEP IT UNTIL DEATH THEN PASS IT DOWN TO YOUR GRANDCHILDREN!

[Sprintey]

Yep it's a legend in it's reliability, just done another 500km country run in our low km wagon example. It was widely revered as a boat anchor on it's tests in the day, and yet the HFV6 managed to out crud it, which is a remarkable achievement. Later with direct injection, the SIDI ones would form interesting carbon deposits that tended to make the LHS cylinder bank (looking from front of car) blacken up, with a clogged PCV with too little holes, too little airflow, too much gunk, gummed up valves, gummed up and slipping timing chains.

But this is about the Ecotec! All iron, all good. Franco points out the problems well. It's everything Holden's best 6 (the 186 - can't vote for a Nissan motor) had - simplicity, reliability, cheap parts, torque low down, and reasonable economy. 186 was smoother though: the Ecotec is still a rumbly rough idling thing despite the improvements.

Got 7.7L/100km on last 500km trip up the coast, and 9.6 coming back into Satan's headwind.

Every time the VY goes to the mechanics, 2-3 tradies offer them to buy it. Last visit was just like the one before, and the one before. Back roads of Australia are filled with sun-faded VYs, I've seen so many of them. The GM-H mechanics, when Dad used to get the wagon serviced at a big Metropolitan dealer, used to tell him to keep it and not upgrade!

[Sprintey]

Oh yeah - Dr Terry can you confirm - isn't the Buick V6 a 3/4 iron block version of the initial American aluminium V8 that became the Rover V8?

If so we have 14/6ths = 7/3rds of Ecotec in the family lol

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

vt wagon is a true gentlemans saloon

anything this age that hasnt been half looked after is rooted whatever it is

Dad was a true gentleman. ****ed him off no end when someone referred to his darker-coloured example as a 'hearse'.

[Late braker]

In a previous non-Ford life I had a 1995 VS Acclaim sedan. It had the Buick-derived V6. I did about 290,000km in that car and it was a very good car. It was reliable and comfortable. I miss it a bit actually. When the time came, it was between the VE SV6 and the BF XR6. The Ford came home with me. It was simply a better car than the VE.

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Oh yeah - Dr Terry can you confirm - isn't the Buick V6 a 3/4 iron block version of the initial American aluminium V8 that became the Rover V8?

Yep, all part of the same family. The Yanks had both iron & aluminium versions of the V8 back then & I believe that Jeep used the V6 for a while during the 60s & 70s. Very long-lived design.

You often hear of "praise" for the RB30 Nissan 6-cyl used in the VL as being such a great engine & so much better than the V6. If you worked in the motor industry during the late 80s into the 90s (especially in a Holden dealership) you probably wouldn't share that view.

Sure the 3.0 was smooth, refined & economical, but they lacked the low-down torque, that Aussie 6-cyl buyers were used to & they also had a long list of service & reliability issues, shared withe R31 Skyline. Things like head gaskets, broken exhaust manifold studs, faulty electronics, including crank sensors, air flow meters, coolant temp sensors, oxygen sensors, ignition amplifiers, ECUs. They were great for the auto service game in the early 90s. just like EA/EB Fords & Mits Magnas.

In hindsight & over the longer term, the ECOTec V6, was a far more durable & torquey powerplant. If you look at the 2nd hand values of VT, VX & VY V6 models, it speaks volumes.

Dr Terry

[Peter B - CV8]

Originally Posted by Late braker

In a previous non-Ford life I had a 1995 VS Acclaim sedan. It had the Buick-derived V6. I did about 290,000km in that car and it was a very good car. It was reliable and comfortable. I miss it a bit actually. When the time came, it was between the VE SV6 and the BF XR6. The Ford came home with me. It was simply a better car than the VE.

Similar to me. I had a VS Statesman & put about 250,000km on it - all troublefree motoring. These Ecotec motors weren't comfortable having their necks wrung & were pretty coarse at high revs. They were a good touring car & ate up the miles with ease - you just had to keep the engine revs in their "happy place".

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by Peter B - CV8

Similar to me. I had a VS Statesman & put about 250,000km on it - all troublefree motoring. These Ecotec motors weren't comfortable having their necks wrung & were pretty coarse at high revs. They were a good touring car & ate up the miles with ease - you just had to keep the engine revs in their "happy place".

A bit like the old 250 ci Ford 6-cyl, torquey & reliable but didn't like revs.

Dr Terry

[ute83]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

Things like head gaskets, broken exhaust manifold studs, faulty electronics, including crank sensors, air flow meters, coolant temp sensors, oxygen sensors, ignition amplifiers, ECUs.

Dr Terry

I was in the automotive industry then and do not recall most of that. We had a VL and did well over 600k km. Was still going strong when we sold it. It had had the H/gasket done prior to us owning it as this happened very early on in their lives. Also had to do the exhaust manifold studs and the CAS. I also had to change the tranny (unlike todays tranny) and a water pump. Was one of the best cars we have had. Mind you we have a 380 that's turned 500k km with nothing failing on the drivetrain at all. Now that is a V6. Goes as good now as the day we got her.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

Just think, the money poured into that engine could have been put towards something a little nicer than a Ecotec VS Commodore.

Seen more than a handful of VS era Commodores getting Barra turbo powerplants.



The earlier versions of the V6 were like throwing a set of spanners into a washing machine, they vibrated like crazy. Absolutely rough as guts.