Toyota Australia calls for delay in first federal auto emissions standard

[Sprintey]

https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-new...sions-standard

We can see why they might.

Tremendous change is happening in the auto market, right now. Overseas, we are seeing companies calling for a slow down in the implementation of their CO2/EV policies for cars. Australia has no domestic industry to protect, so it's watch with popcorn time.

What do you think? Slow it down? Let it rip? Lord of the flies approach, and let the dust settle? Or just vote out the government?

[Syndrome]

Toyota is right. The risks are too high.

[ivorya]

Toyota are a bunch of whingers!
They keep complaining about EV's, emissions targets etc all because they have been sitting on their hands for yrs just expecting the Brand to sell itself.
I'd give them a shot of concrete and a box of tissues!

[Fordman1]

It’s BS, we are are a country of less than 30 million people.

When India, China, Brazil, and other countries with over 100 million people comply, we can look at this.

It’s not Toyota, it’s nonsensical BS.

Changing emissions for our market costs money including certification and content in the vehicle,
I say once the other big markets comply we can do the same,

[Sprintey]

Yes, a search of who's building all the new coal fired power stations, and where they are, reveals that CO2 overshoot is going to happen no matter what we do.

[Sprintey]

To add this: Hagerty has done an excellent review of the new 250 Series Prado (just 'Landcruiser' in the US) with the hybrid petrol powertrain. This type of product is seen to be the way to have the 4x4/dual cab cake and eat it - the review reveals the limitations...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlhSgUh_6VY

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Yes, a search of who's building all the new coal fired power stations, and where they are, reveals that CO2 overshoot is going to happen no matter what we do.

Like I said this is BS, being pushed by our stupid Governments to “save the planet”.

We are a pimple on a Chinese and / or an Indian Elephants ****.

We won’t make any difference apart from making our cost of living and the purchase of motor vehicles more expensive.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-new...sions-standard

We can see why they might.

Tremendous change is happening in the auto market, right now. Overseas, we are seeing companies calling for a slow down in the implementation of their CO2/EV policies for cars. Australia has no domestic industry to protect, so it's watch with popcorn time.

What do you think? Slow it down? Let it rip? Lord of the flies approach, and let the dust settle? Or just vote out the government?

I reckon let it rip, kick all the OEMs in the *** massively, now they can't rest on a bunch of shitbox diesel utes because they start paying penalties if they've got nothing to bring the averages down - this effects Ford Australia because they've decided to cut everything rather than offer a decent cross section of vehicles to the Australian market, where as Toyota is sitting quite well and can build up significant credits because of their offering to the Australian market doesn't solely rest on a diesel ute and a SUV thats a diesel ute with a roof over the back of it.

However, Australia will have their say on this in May before it comes into effect, the opposition could campaign on killing the NVES before it kicks off in July, however it narrows their path to winning the election because it reduces the chances of them winning back any Teal seats, who are in key electorates who support the NVES, who are backed by a billionaire, who markets very effectively.

A cheeky alternative, is that the opposition could broaden the exemptions of the NVES to make it effectively useless, but still keep it around so they're still 'for the environment' on paper, think of worthless shit like the scam thats carbon credits.

At the end of the day Australia with our sub 30M population, we don't do anything to the environment compared to India and China, and you don't solve environmental issues by putting taxes and levies on things. Introducing new taxes and levies doesn't 'fix' anything, like how putting ridiculous taxes on tobacco doesn't stop smokers from having health issues, or stop them from smoking.

However, either way at the end of the day I couldn't give a shit because I'm not a customer of the car manufacturers this is going to hurt and we don't have any local manufacturing industry to protect either, no skin off our noses.

If the government was going to make a reasonable compromise, they should have introduced the NVES but as a sweetener, dropped the ADRs which would allow manufacturers to easily bring in their cleaner vehicles they don't offer to the Australian market, because they dont want to invest the engineering funds to make their vehicles meet the very specific requirements of a tiny market with lots of competition.

[smoo]

Originally Posted by ivorya

Toyota are a bunch of whingers!
They keep complaining about EV's, emissions targets etc all because they have been sitting on their hands for yrs just expecting the Brand to sell itself.
I'd give them a shot of concrete and a box of tissues!

Except Toyota appear benefit from the scheme with their current line up and sales?

Does anyone know how vehicles are will be priced once this comes into place?
What will this do to Mazda, Ford, Isuzu RRPs?

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by smoo

Except Toyota appear benefit from the scheme with their current line up and sales?

Does anyone know how vehicles are will be priced once this comes into place?
What will this do to Mazda, Ford, Isuzu RRPs?

One assumes they'll pass on the costs to consumers through RRP rises on all their products,

The OEMs start paying fines, but it wont happen for a while.

If a car maker cannot lower its interim emissions value for a given year to zero or less, it will be fined by the Federal Government at an indexed rate of $100 per gram per kilometre of CO2 each vehicle sold is over the limit.

Will the NVES increase car prices?

The NVES does not mandate the prices of new cars, and the fines handed out by the Federal Government for manufacturers that don’t meet the targets are issued to car makers, not customers.

However, a number of top-selling car makers have already admitted they will need to pass any potential fines they are hit with onto the consumer in the form of vehicle price rises.

As mentioned above, car companies are in business to make money – and paying government fines hurts their profit margins, or could see them lose money.

One option to keep high-pollution vehicles on sale is to pass NVES emissions fines onto the customer in partiality – or their entirety – as a price rise at the point of sale. It makes vehicles less attainable for customers, but those that can afford them can still buy one, and the car maker can continue to turn a profit.

Given everyone leases new cars these days and you only see a 'weekly cost' you pay, does anyone actually care if the Ranger went from say $70,000 up to $120,000 as an example? It just means the ones trying to keep up with the joneses pay maybe a few hundred bucks more a week on the lease and thats about it, we've also got a two speed economy (at least in Melbourne), there's still a lot of money around for new vehicle purchases and there's people in abject poverty struggling to put food on the table.

They've thrown a bone to Ford Australia and Isuzu because they've put less stringent targets on LCVs, I believe the Everest is about to make a change into the LCV category too with some paper engineering

[kevino]

Toyota three highest price vehicles ( four if you include Hiace) are diesels
Let’s guess that LC300/LC250, 70 series and Hilux make a high proportion of Toyota Australia’s profits but are also their dirtiest vehicles and yes commercial have lower targets but very very difficult to meet in a couple of years
One would guess then that Mr Hanley of Toyota Aus is just trying to protect these three or four high profit vehicles

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by kevino

Toyota three highest price vehicles ( four if you include Hiace) are diesels
Let’s guess that LC300/LC250, 70 series and Hilux make a high proportion of Toyota Australia’s profits but are also their dirtiest vehicles and yes commercial have lower targets but very very difficult to meet in a couple of years
One would guess then that Mr Hanley of Toyota Aus is just trying to protect these three or four high profit vehicles

Who'd have thought that diesel engines are crap

They'll come out with some mild hybrid versions when the time comes, or all the manufacturers will just continue cheating on emissions tests anyway

[kevino]

I ve heard one poster describe diesel Utes as shitboxes
I
Lean to that view when I follow a bad smell which is a prado or hilux doing a dpf burn off at road speed
That stench is disgusting and the cloud of white smoke
Bad for the environment?
Certainly bad for mine if I m following one of these alleged shit boxes doing a dpf burn off

[Syndrome]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Yes, a search of who's building all the new coal fired power stations, and where they are, reveals that CO2 overshoot is going to happen no matter what we do.

Shoosh or they will call you a right wing conspiracy nutjob.

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by ivorya

Toyota are a bunch of whingers!
They keep complaining about EV's, emissions targets etc all because they have been sitting on their hands for yrs just expecting the Brand to sell itself.
I'd give them a shot of concrete and a box of tissues!

Exactly, Toyota can suck it up, they've been milking it long enough and have only themselves to blame (yeah looking especially at you Sean Hanley). They have had years but did SFA.

[BENT_8]

Yeah, bloody Toyota.

Arent they that company that refused to be pushed into EV's when everyone else was, only to watch on as fellow legacy manufacturers failed to transition at haste only for the EV fad bubble to burst and people to flock back to hybrids in record numbers?

Must suck to be the no1 seller in the market with an idea of what is sustainable long term and technology people want to buy.

Bloody Toyota.

[kevino]

Early days in the Bev s bent
Early days
Let s see how the market looks in 2/3 years as Bev s improve and get more price competitive / range competitive

[smoo]

Originally Posted by kevino

Early days in the Bev s bent
Early days
Let s see how the market looks in 2/3 years as Bev s improve and get more price competitive / range competitive

It be better to see how the market would be without any govt intervention by way of significant taxes/subsidies.

[kevino]

Aren’t all those subsidies pretty much wound back already

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by kevino

Aren’t all those subsidies pretty much wound back already

PHEVs and other hybrids have had their subsidy wound back. EVs still have theirs.

Still better off getting a dual cab ute with the tax breaks they get.

[kevino]

Quick check on Vic Qld Bev subsidies
3 k subsidy on under 68k cheaper rego.
Possibly 6 k over 68 k but the interweb stuff I read may be outdated.
I dont like subsidies on Bevs at this stage it favours corporates and the wealthy.

[Crazy Dazz]

Under the scheme, carmakers will be issued credits or monetary fines based on their CO2 tailpipe emissions targets for new passenger and light-commercial vehicles sold in Australia.

Great, so the Chinese Companies (and VW) will all be rewarded.

And why is that Australian governments always introduce things that other countries have spent 50 years proving don't actually work.

All this means is that we'll see an increase in companies blatantly lying, and/or flogging bullshit hybrids and PHEVs, that are allowed to effectively cheat the tests and post bogus figures.

In America, you can buy a huge variety of PHEVs that qualify as ZEVs because they can theoretically complete the standard test on battery only. Yet they are routinely sold without the $10k charging-station, or even the $1k power cord.

[kevino]

There’s a few Us Korean and Euro car makers selling Bev s here as well as the CCP and Vw - in fact Vw own brand hasn’t sold any Bev s in Aus yet

[ivorya]

Why are they complaining about something they actively had discussions about and agreed too?
They have dumped their 3rd world emission vehicles on us for yrs and when asked to give us what they're providing Europe or LA, they cry! Not sure why, they will still increase the price and people will pay.
I know why, they are playing the Trump Card! Trumpy will save us. Lol

[ivorya]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Great, so the Chinese Companies (and VW) will all be rewarded.

I watched a great documentary about the Chinese Technological rise.
Back in the 90s, their gov and Head of Technologies decided that electronics/batteries and battery vehicles should be the future of their development.

Lets fast forward to today.
Why is anyone surprised that they are now 25yrs ahead of everyone else?
Why shouldn't they be rewarded with sales etc?
Isn't that Capitalism? We build something cheaper than anyone else, the people will buy!

or// It's not Capitalism if a non-US/Western country builds something cheaper!

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by ivorya

I watched a great documentary about the Chinese Technological rise.
Back in the 90s, their gov and Head of Technologies decided that electronics/batteries and battery vehicles should be the future of their development.

Lets fast forward to today.
Why is anyone surprised that they are now 25yrs ahead of everyone else?
Why shouldn't they be rewarded with sales etc?
Isn't that Capitalism? We build something cheaper than anyone else, the people will buy!

or// It's not Capitalism if a non-US/Western country builds something cheaper!

Jury is still out on Chinese EVs IMO - way better than their ICE cars but she's still no Tesla.

Tesla Model 3 is the Falcon/Commodore of the EV world, good support.

Where as I think BYD doesn't even have their own workshops, they've partnered with that Mycar franchise as their workshop network

[Sprintey]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_in_China_2025

we are seeing trade blocs develop

[ivorya]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Jury is still out on Chinese EVs IMO - way better than their ICE cars but she's still no Tesla.

Tesla Model 3 is the Falcon/Commodore of the EV world, good support.

Where as I think BYD doesn't even have their own workshops, they've partnered with that Mycar franchise as their workshop network

While they have partnered with MyCar, there are some BYD Dealerships that do have their own workshops.

I agree, Tesla is holding their own in engineering (Giga press etc) and computing. They are the innovators.
They are now using BYD/CATL batteries in their variants around the world, Just not in the US.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_in_China_2025

we are seeing trade blocs develop

Wow imagine having a government that wants to value add to its manufacturing industry, that must be nice to have

[simon varley]

Originally Posted by Fordman1

Changing emissions for our market costs money including certification and content in the vehicle,

nope. BS ADRs cost money. Without them we could import UK certified cars for no added cost.